What sight is that on your uts15 I'm picking one up soon and am looking for a sight I have an eotech that's raised not sure if it would be too high looking for something that people know work with the uts15

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Lol optic on a hd shotgun

My uts15 is not going to be my HD shotgun my mossy 500 is I have a meprolight bead on it got from DVOR for over half off

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Lol optic on a hd shotgun

Why is an optic on a shotgun used for HD laughable?

Lol optic on a hd shotgun

 

Why is an optic on a shotgun used for HD laughable?

Really?

Lol optic on a hd shotgun

 

 

 

Why is an optic on a shotgun used for HD laughable?

 

Really?

Is a bead sight not a primitive dot sight? Seems like the same concept. Dot on target pull the trigger. I'm getting a fast fire 3 from tactical turtle one for the vector one for the 930

 

 

Sent from my hidden under ground bunker between Taco Bell and the dry cleaner

Bead. Less is more.

My eyes!

+100

Really?

 

Absolutely. I figured anyone with the audacity to use "SOCOM" as a screen name would be more enlightened.

 

If you used an AR for HD (and I do, but that is a whole other topic) would you run an optic? Why not on a shotgun? The fundamentals of gunfighting are the same regardless of the platform: Marksmanship, Weapons manipulation, Tactics, and Mindset. Why would you choose to enhance your capabilities on one platform but not another? Why is that so hard to understand?

 

A HD scenario requiring you to use deadly force by deploying a firearm will be fast and violent. This is when you want to be as quick and accurate as possible. Gunfights are won in the gaps. A thousandth of a second can separate the winners from the losers. Why wouldn't you want to give yourself every advantage possible in the defense of your life and the lives of your loved ones?

 

The RDS allows you to keep both eyes open and maintain situational awareness, they are more accurate in low light and unconventional positions, they can make you faster and more accurate under stress. Where is the negative?

 

Is a long gun with a standard bead/rifle/ghost ring set-up adequate? Sure.

 

Is a long gun with a quality RDS sight more capable? Absolutely!

 

Shoot some drills at typical room distances on a timer both with an RDS and without. Use a target with realistic hit zones known for faster incapicitation and fire 6 rounds as fast as you can with no misses. Be honest with regards to comparing your ability to balance accuracy and speed using both sighting systems and see what shakes.

 

Bead. Less is more.

If you mean less accuracy at less speed is more dangerous to you and yours, than you are correct.

It's funny I typed out a large long explanation yesterday, including a pointed few lines that I have endured more than a few people 'making fun' of using an Aimpoint on my combat shotgun(s) and using ghost ring sights standard.  I tried to go back and forth in the beginning then I gave up once I realized, a lot of the people telling me how bad optics were and how great and only great their bead is, Actually have no experience with an optic/red dot-reflex sight on a combat shotgun NOR do they even have high quality optics , never having used things like the $500 and up Aimpoint Micro / EOTech XPS/EXPS lines.  Some do use decent optics on their ARs but never on shotguns and somehow thing it makes them smart enough or experienced enough to comment and criticize those that do.

 

I deleted it not wanting to rehash old discussions nor bring back up old arguments, then I saw this.  It's amazing to me those that will say things in a negative light that either don't know or don't care to gain valuable experience in the subject they criticize.  The first time I installed an Aimpoint on my M930SPX I thought, this looks and feels REALLY good... Points awesome to begin with, Now it's feeling downright scary good.....Then I tried it out, And wow.  Just wow.  It was *amazing* how quickly I coud pick up the target, from point blank down to 25 yds (the max at the indoor range I often frequent) and even MORE amazing how quickly I could get round after round of 00 Buck on target, on the kill zone/ accurate shot placement and pattern, Each and Every Time, Round after Round, Full magazine after Full magazine, repeatedly.  It did not take me long to realize I had found a good thing, and a great system for me.

 

 

Now I would NEVER tell you not to use your bead or whatever you want to do.  There is something called "[baby] duck syndrome" and it's a psychology term that relates from everything to nature and wild animals to computer programing and handwriting.  Basically, whatever system and setup you learn first and most in a given situation is what you will wind up constantly going back to, as your comfort level keeps bringing you back, when in a more advanced or aged situation in that task.  it's why me at 32 years old still likes to fire up the Command prompt in Windows because I was a certified expert @ MS DOS at the age of 13, and when I moved on to Borland and C/C++, I just never liked it as much, because I imprinted on DOS, and whenever I got into advanced C/C++ [and damned Visual BASIC/etc.] in junior/senior years of HS, I always wanted to revert back to DOS, like a duckling falling in line and following Mama Duck whenever it gets lost or scared etc, it just goes with what it knows most and best.

 

So people will bash the sighting and optic systems on Shotguns because they learned the bead, then got comfortable with the bead, and as is Epidemic on the internet, the see other people bashing things like red dot / reflex sights on combat shotguns and think, I should say that too, The Others say its bad and laughable to I will laugh.  In fact its laughable that people bash it.  Especially because, *I KNOW* I'm awesome with a red dot (and most likely an EOTech/Trijicon Reflex type too, I just don't have one) on my M930SPX and 870 Tactical... Other people might be great at shooting skeet and trap and clays, I am not really.  But I'm damned good at using the shotgun in a tactical setting drill and the red dot makes it scary fast/accurate.  I just cannot fathom how it can be bashed when it gives such an advantage at speed and shot placement.

 

And finally, even if YOU or Yours don't like it or shoot well with it, why in the heck would it matter that someone else likes it?  It is just so ridiculous that in 2013 we are still insinuating that everyone should be shooting and equipping their firearms the way we say so, because we did it the way we read other people said and did, and so on . Amazing.  Do what you feel, shoot what you like and how you like, unless something IS NOT working for you , do your thing.  Make your adjustments the way you need to, if and when you need to.  It's 2013, We have not just seen the first sighting system on shotguns, it's pretty much a pretty common and accepted thing these days, And NOT Something that gets laughed at for cause.

Love this thread. And I am the shotgun rookie here.

 

But is it possible that the issue here is the myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun ? You just "point it" ?

 

There is a hickok45 video about HD weapons that was an eye opener for me

Not unless you want to saw the barrel off.

 

Love this thread. And I am the shotgun rookie here.

 

 

But is it possible that the issue here is the myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun ? You just "point it" ?

 

 

There is a hickok45 video about HD weapons that was an eye opener for me

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

If you mean less accuracy at less speed is more dangerous to you and yours, than you are correct.

 

 

 

 

Nonsense

 

If you mean less accuracy at less speed is more dangerous to you and yours, than you are correct.

 

Absolute nonsense.

 

Why is it "absolute nonsense"?

 

Two word answers are useless. Please back your statement up with facts, or at the very least, personal opinions framed from first hand experience.

Love this thread. And I am the shotgun rookie here.

 

But is it possible that the issue here is the myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun ? You just "point it" ?

 

There is a hickok45 video about HD weapons that was an eye opener for me

That is exactly what I do I just keep both eyes open, point and pull the trigger. While I have never had to use a shotgun or any gun for H/D I don't see the point of using an optic for a H/D situation. I would think that at the distances that one would be shooting inside a home aiming would be pointless and would take more time I would be shooting from the hip. I have no problem shooting 12" targets from the hip at distances out to 25 feet. I am skeptical of using any optic on any H/D gun because they can fail where a bead can never fail. Or if you shoot from the hip you don't even need a bead. 

 

 

Love this thread. And I am the shotgun rookie here.

 

 

But is it possible that the issue here is the myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun ? You just "point it" ?

 

 

There is a hickok45 video about HD weapons that was an eye opener for me

 

 

That is exactly what I do I just keep both eyes open, point and pull the trigger. While I have never had to use a shotgun or any gun for H/D I don't see the point of using an optic for a H/D situation. I would think that at the distances that one would be shooting inside a home aiming would be pointless and would take more time I would be shooting from the hip. I have no problem shooting 12" targets from the hip at distances out to 25 feet. I am skeptical of using any optic on any H/D gun because they can fail where a bead can never fail. Or if you shoot from the hip you don't even need a bead.

Thank you Adam!!! Optics on shotguns for HD is just a fad and waste of money!

That is exactly what I do I just keep both eyes open, point and pull the trigger. While I have never had to use a shotgun or any gun for H/D I don't see the point of using an optic for a H/D situation. I would think that at the distances that one would be shooting inside a home aiming would be pointless and would take more time I would be shooting from the hip. I have no problem shooting 12" targets from the hip at distances out to 25 feet. I am skeptical of using any optic on any H/D gun because they can fail where a bead can never fail. Or if you shoot from the hip you don't even need a bead.

 

With the astounding amount of real world knowledge out there regarding gunfighting tactics, techniques, procedures and equipment, the fact that people still think this way after 12 years of war astounds me. Anyone who thinks that a RDS on a long gun is a waste has not done research into modern gunfight TTPs and E and has not examined any of the post shooting reports that are available. They have also not trained with a firearm equipped with a quality and reliable RDS and I can also guarantee that they have never pointed a firearm at another person in less than ideal conditions and had wished for every advantage possible.

 

Have you ever put a RDS on a shotgun (or any gun) and timed yourself? Have you ever actually measured the difference in speed and accuracy between bead/rifle/ghost ring/RDS? Try it. You may be surprised.

 

Why do you think that competition shooters that use RDS on their firearms are placed in their own class? Because they are slower and the competitiors shooting iron sights have an unfair advantage? Look at the scores from any of the Steel Challenge Matches in Old Bridge. You can compare the scores yourself. The same shooter, shooting the same target array, with a similar caliber gun both with and without a red dot sight. The RDS runs are consistently faster by a significant margin.

 

As far as an optic failing, I have seen more broken beads on in service working shotguns than failed quality optics. If you buy quality (Aimpont) then there is no issue. All of my long guns (except my MP5, which has an Insight MRDS and 1 AR with an ACOG) have RDS (Aimpoints) and for cause.

 

Aiming is never pointless and regardless of the platform is the only way to assure effective hits. Believe it or not, a shotgun is not a magic wand that strikes fear into the hearts of men when racked and it is not a point and shoot weapon. I have seen a number of men live after being shot with a 12g and 1 even literally walk away. I have seen people miss targets entirely from 10 yards with a shotgun on a perfect day at the range without the added stress of fear and adrenaline you will have during a critical incident. As far as HD "distances" with a shotgun, the closer you are the less spread you get. Following that logic, you would have to be more precise with a shotgun the closer you are.

 

I am sorry but, anyone who proclaims that shooting from the hip is the way to go in CQB/CQC needs to stop learning about gunfighting by watching the A-Team. Regarding your assertation that "aiming" takes too long or is a waste of time is irrelevant - its not getting the shot off that counts, it is getting effective hits. If you aim you have a much better chance of hitting something vital and a slow hit is better than a fast miss any time. In any event, aiming is most definitely not slower. I guarantee that a trained shooter is faster and more accurate (getting effective hits) aiming than you are shooting from the hip, regardless of the platform, all day long.

 

Thank you Adam!!! Optics on shotguns for HD is just a fad and waste of money!

You keep stating this but you have yet to answer any of my questions or offered a compelling argument or evidence to support your position.

Watch first minute of this video

 

 

I have no experience as high exposure above. But this video was an awakening for me... It's titled what is best for HD but I really enjoyed the shotgun "aiming" thing. (and let's not let this thread drift about ARs for HD. The question was optics on SGs)

His quote. "at close ranges a shotgun is basically a rifle"

Across a room, 00 buck doesn't spread very much.  I think its a good idea to aim.

 

With the astounding amount of real world knowledge out there regarding gunfighting tactics, techniques, procedures and equipment, the fact that people still think this way after 12 years of war astounds me. Anyone who thinks that a RDS on a long gun is a waste has not done research into modern gunfight TTPs and E and has not examined any of the post shooting reports that are available. They have also not trained with a firearm equipped with a quality and reliable RDS and I can also guarantee that they have never pointed a firearm at another person in less than ideal conditions and had wished for every advantage possible.

 

Have you ever put a RDS on a shotgun (or any gun) and timed yourself? Have you ever actually measured the difference in speed and accuracy between bead/rifle/ghost ring/RDS? Try it. You may be surprised.

 

Why do you think that competition shooters that use RDS on their firearms are placed in their own class? Because they are slower and the competitiors shooting iron sights have an unfair advantage? Look at the scores from any of the Steel Challenge Matches in Old Bridge. You can compare the scores yourself. The same shooter, shooting the same target array, with a similar caliber gun both with and without a red dot sight. The RDS runs are consistently faster by a significant margin.

 

As far as an optic failing, I have seen more broken beads on in service working shotguns than failed quality optics. If you buy quality (Aimpont) then there is no issue. All of my long guns (except my MP5, which has an Insight MRDS and 1 AR with an ACOG) have RDS (Aimpoints) and for cause.

 

Aiming is never pointless and regardless of the platform is the only way to assure effective hits. Believe it or not, a shotgun is not a magic wand that strikes fear into the hearts of men when racked and it is not a point and shoot weapon. I have seen a number of men live after being shot with a 12g and 1 even literally walk away. I have seen people miss targets entirely from 10 yards with a shotgun on a perfect day at the range without the added stress of fear and adrenaline you will have during a critical incident. As far as HD "distances" with a shotgun, the closer you are the less spread you get. Following that logic, you would have to be more precise with a shotgun the closer you are.

 

I am sorry but, anyone who proclaims that shooting from the hip is the way to go in CQB/CQC needs to stop learning about gunfighting by watching the A-Team. Regarding your assertation that "aiming" takes too long or is a waste of time is irrelevant - its not getting the shot off that counts, it is getting effective hits. If you aim you have a much better chance of hitting something vital and a slow hit is better than a fast miss any time. In any event, aiming is most definitely not slower. I guarantee that a trained shooter is faster and more accurate (getting effective hits) aiming than you are shooting from the hip, regardless of the platform, all day long.

 

 

You keep stating this but you have yet to answer any of my questions or offered a compelling argument or evidence to support your position.

they call it the A team because my name is Adam, they learned from me not me from them. No need for the personal attack there man, we are just haveing a discussion

My comments above were not a personal attack and I am sorry if it came off that way. This is not about you but you are responsible for what you post.

 

I am nothing on this board but a member, and a relatively new one at that, but here's what this comes down to IMO.

 

This isn't just a discussion.

 

A member on this board is asking for advice regarding a weapon used for HD. That means it is life saving equipment dedicated to be used in the defense of his life or the lives of his loved ones.

 

Based on your own statements you have no frame of reference to comment on this topic and the info you provided is flat wrong.

 

Bead vs RDS vs Ghost Ring vs Rifle sight on a shotgun you can argue is an opinion one way or the other. My opinion is a RDS on a shotgun is extremely useful and a force multiplier that may just give you the speed and accuracy you need to prevail. Others disagree (but haven't provided any background or logical reasoning behind their opinion). Great. Got it. But advocating shooting from the hip in a deadly force encounter is borderline negligent.

 

Again, this isn't personal, but if you don't want to get called out on bullshit you posted, don't post bullshit. Consider it mentoring.

 

Mods, I apologize if you feel I am stepping over the line.

None. I do not want anything that may interfer with any of my HD firearms. Over the years I have learned that despite my best intentions, there is always a time that the batteries in the red dot are dead when I need them for an event or practice. HD shotguns tend to spend a lot of time in bedrooms; years in some cases. You want something you can just grap and shoot and not something that you have to remove a scope protector cap and/or turn on under stress.

 

Plus for HD distances you do not need much. You already have the best sight setup for HD use and do not give in to buying toys and gadgets for your guns no matter how cool they may be. Been there, got that and bought the Tee Shirt. None of the typical stuff people put on their guns does much at HD distances. I would add a good light that takes Litiium batteries with a 6 year shelf life as it is hard to use a handheld light with a shotgun. Having a light is very important as you may find yourself using your HD firearm after your power has been cut or simply out do to a natural disaster, like Sandy.

I think your thinking makes alot of scense...How about adding a laser to the above HD config (as an option to use with the iron sights)? like to get your opinion because it sounds like you really thought this through..

I like lasers for HD - on pistol's, SG, frying-pans, etc....(backed up by iron sights).

 

Hard to argue with point and shoot at HD ranges  - no need to come up to eye level if the situation calls for extreem speed, shooting at wierd angles etc....I can't "see" (pun intended) how a red-dot could be faster...

 

For HE :-) my credentials are, I tried it over and over again at the range and in my home (with my pistols - still looking for a SG laser).

 

I would like to get Old Dogs view on lasers as I see he is a fellow vet - and a combat one at that - and has spent much time thinking about it.

My comments above were not a personal attack and I am sorry if it came off that way. This is not about you but you are responsible for what you post.

 

I am nothing on this board but a member, and a relatively new one at that, but here's what this comes down to IMO.

 

This isn't just a discussion.

 

A member on this board is asking for advice regarding a weapon used for HD. That means it is life saving equipment dedicated to be used in the defense of his life or the lives of his loved ones.

 

Based on your own statements you have no frame of reference to comment on this topic and the info you provided is flat wrong.

 

Bead vs RDS vs Ghost Ring vs Rifle sight on a shotgun you can argue is an opinion one way or the other. My opinion is a RDS on a shotgun is extremely useful and a force multiplier that may just give you the speed and accuracy you need to prevail. Others disagree (but haven't provided any background or logical reasoning behind their opinion). Great. Got it. But advocating shooting from the hip in a deadly force encounter is borderline negligent.

 

Again, this isn't personal, but if you don't want to get called out on bs you posted, don't post bs. Consider it mentoring.

 

Mods, I apologize if you feel I am stepping over the line.

I see High Exposeure is at it again with his wacky preaching...Man, (you) need to be called out...Quite honestly Bro, so you are a cop - fine - I respect that but I don't see what special knowledge you think you have over everyone else...You have (a) point of view, there are many others...We are here to have an open discussion of ideas - not to be judged/ranked/rated by you...And as I've posted on the other thread - you do come across as very arogant and bloviating...You would be of much better service as the "crusader" you claim to be with better communication skills. -Just sayin.

I like lasers for HD - on pistol's, SG, frying-pans, etc....(backed up by iron sights).

 

Hard to argue with point and shoot at HD ranges - no need to come up to eye level if the situation calls for extreem speed, shooting at wierd angles etc....I can't "see" (pun intended) how a red-dot could be faster...

 

For HE :-) my credentials are, I tried it over and over again at the range and in my home (with my pistols - still looking for a SG laser).

 

I would like to get Old Dogs view on lasers as I see he is a fellow vet - and a combat one at that - and has spent much time thinking about it.

If you think someone is in your house trying to kill you... Why would your weapon be anywhere other than eye level ..

I like lasers for HD - on pistol's, SG, frying-pans, etc....(backed up by iron sights).

 

Hard to argue with point and shoot at HD ranges - no need to come up to eye level if the situation calls for extreem speed, shooting at wierd angles etc....I can't "see" (pun intended) how a red-dot could be faster...

 

For HE :-) my credentials are, I tried it over and over again at the range and in my home (with my pistols - still looking for a SG laser).

 

I would like to get Old Dogs view on lasers as I see he is a fellow vet - and a combat one at that - and has spent much time thinking about it.

 

 

Vlad covered the "point and shoot" comment and he is 100% correct. If you are carrying your firearm in a standard/accepted manner while searching, why isn't your eye at or near the sights.

 

You have all of these very strong opinions, but what are they actually based on? Have you ever actually used a RDS? I suspect not, or at least not a quality one after being trained to use it properly. You know that you don't line anything up right? You simply place the dot on your target with both eyes open and press the trigger until you get the desired effect. In fact, usind a RDS is much like using a laser designator only without projecting any downrange signature. They are expressly designed to make shooting at "extreme speed" and "weird angles" more efficient, and more accurate. They are a hundred times faster and more precise than "point and shoot" and they are a significant improvement over iron sights on every firearm platform out there (including pistols) and they actually increase situational awareness to boot.

 

If your credentials are only that you "tried it at the range and in your house" you are behind the curve and have an unrealistic assessment of your skills relating to gunfighting. That's like saying you can fly an F-16 because you have a Flight Sim on your computer. You need to train under the eyes of a reputable instructor in a class relevant to the skills you think you will need. You need to test yourself regularly and practice properly to sustain your skills.

 

ODs frame of reference was from Vietnam (from the son, nephew, and grandson of other Vietnam Vets, Welcome Home OD!) At that time a bead sighted shotgun was state of the art (even though Armson OEG RDS were first used by US military forces on the Son Tay raid in November of 1970) Not to take anything from his experience, but things have changed. If they had RDS that were as reliable, robust, and as efficient then as they are now - with a 50,000 to 70,000 hour battery life - I suspect his experience and frame of reference would have been much different.

 

I see High Exposeure is at it again with his wacky preaching...Man, (you) need to be called out...Quite honestly Bro, so you are a cop - fine - I respect that but I don't see what special knowledge you think you have over everyone else...You have (a) point of view, there are many others...We are here to have an open discussion of ideas - not to be judged/ranked/rated by you...And as I've posted on the other thread - you do come across as very arogant and bloviating...You would be of much better service as the "crusader" you claim to be with better communication skills. -Just sayin.

So call (me) out? Pick a range, I will bring a timer and we will see what method works better. There is no "wacky preaching", just the truth as I know it.

 

Being a Cop has nothing to do with obtaining any special knowledge. Hell, most Cops aren't even gun people and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the range.

 

My limited knowledge comes from some awesome people that learned these skills through blood, sweat, and tears. They came before me and passed down whet they learned. I am honored to call them my mentors and friends. As a good friend told me once, "It is not about shooting. It is all about the basics... The basics of Gunfuckingfighting" and being trained and having experience in Modern Gunfighting TTPs, vice marksmanship alone, is the crux here.

 

I don't know everything by a longshot, but I know a thing or two about a thing or two when it comes to CQB tactics and related gear selections If I don't have knowledge, experience, or a frame of reference, about a topic I won't sound off. I try to limit my posts to topics I know about. I don't post on things "out of my lane". For example, you won't see me post anything about precision long range shooting, or reloading, or knives, or blackpowder firearms, or hunting, or AKs because I have no experience with them and I don't rate an opinion in those topics.

 

I judge/rank no person as no one has the keys to the kingdom when it comes to these kinds of topics. However, I do have significant training and experience in certain topics to recognize BS and if someone posts something that in my experience is wrong, or that isn't based in sound TTPs as I have learned them, I will attempt confirm the basis for the opinion - considering the source - or throw the BS flag.

 

Bloviating

Edited May 31, 201313 yr by High Exposure

I have a man-crush on High Exposure.

 

There are many bits of military type kit that people hang from their guns for no good reason, but RDSs are not in that class, they should really be on nearly everything. Beyond 200 yards they start to suffer when compared with scopes, but under 200yards RDSs are simply unbeatable.

 

You can beat your chest, claim your eyes are all you need, say that simple is better, and so on. Yet nearly every military weapon now has optics on it and optics dominate the competition circles when not purposely excluded from some division or another.   The shotgun is not exempt from this, no defensive firearm is. It is simply faster and more accurate to use a RDS.

I dual weld and fire from the hip, so I don't need optics

I have a man-crush on High Exposure.

 

Yup. And ditto everything else Vlad said.