Everywhere I've read said they carry the 5.7 and the 229. The ert teams carry the p90. I haven't seen anything otherwise. But let's say its all lies ok fine. It's still a pistol that can carry 30 rounds, is light, accurate, has low recoil and penetration better then most. To me that sounds like a damn good fighting pistol

 

 

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They don't use the 5Seven Pistol, but they do use the P90. The SS also uses ARs, Sigs, Uzis, MP5s, UMPs, 249s, 240s, and a bunch of other stuff. The 5.7 platform is a niche gun, and they are used solely because they can hide them under a coat better than a short AR, not because they are a death ray or because the platform is the bees knees.

 

I know a few SS guys and a couple of their CAT guys (SS SWAT Team). The plainclothes guys that carry the P90 all know the limitations and understand that it is one mag per bad guy. If given a choice, the guys I know would all rather take ARs if they could. All the CAT guys use ARs.

 

If that round was as good as FN touts, it would be in every cop holster in America. Instead, PDs like Washington Twp NJ bought them and then had to scramble to find money to replace them after a year of use when they realized that they had been had.

 

249s and 240s???  Where the hell do they need to use those?  

Everywhere I've read said they carry the 5.7 and the 229. The ert teams carry the p90. I haven't seen anything otherwise. But let's say its all lies ok fine. It's still a pistol that can carry 30 rounds, is light, accurate, has low recoil and penetration better then most. To me that sounds like a damn good fighting pistolSent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Again, The CAT teams prefer to carry ARs, not P90s, and Sigs not FN 5sevens. The P90 is used when it fits certain mission profiles because it is better than a pointy stick under a suit jacket.

 

The ballistics on the 5.7 round is abysmal regardless of a 30 round capacity (which you can't have here anyway) - 30 rounds of crappy terminal effects is still 30 rounds of crappy terminal effects. I have seen the effects on deer that were attempted to be put down by this round and it is shockingly bad.

 

If by penetration you are talking about the anti-armor capabilities you should know this - not every chambering of the 5.7x28 round is armor piercing. Most are not. There a a couple of very tightly controlled offerings that have the ability to do this, the rest have little more power to penetrate than any other pistol round. By comparison, they also make a 9mm high velocity round that is capable of penetrating body armor as well.

 

Quick math problem: If I can shoot 6-7 rounds of more effective ammo significantly faster that 30 rounds of poor performing ammo and still have 10 rounds of decent ammo left if necessary vs. having to reload the gun with the crappy ammo, who wins the fight?

 

If it is such a good fighting pistol, why is it not in every police holster, ever soldiers gear, every SEALDeltaRanger's rig out there. Why haven't other companies designed their own platform for launching this magic pill like a swarm of angry bees?

 

Bottom line: It is a niche cartridge fired from a niche weapon - with the right ammo from the right platform it shines in a very very narrow mission profile. Otherwise it is insufficient and found lacking for most jobs you need a pistol to do.

 

249s and 240s??? Where the hell do they need to use those?

 

Vehicle mounted with other cool things.....

Big surprise, I agree with HE In my humble opinion, the P90 has a very, very narrow scope of mission usefulness. If I where LE doing a high risk entry on BG's with a high probability of wearing armor, then I might pick it. Otherwise, not so much. IMO the P90 is a pistol alternative, not a rifle replacement. I think many miss that point. On the pistol front...case studies like the one of the bad guy saying to the officer, "can you please stop shooting me with that", don't exactly inspire confidence!

Big surprise, I agree with HE In my humble opinion, the P90 has a very, very narrow scope of mission usefulness. If I where LE doing a high risk entry on BG's with a high probability of wearing armor, then I might pick it. Otherwise, not so much. IMO the P90 is a pistol alternative, not a rifle replacement. I think many miss that point. On the pistol front...case studies like the one of the bad guy saying to the officer, "can you please stop shooting me with that", don't exactly inspire confidence!

When I am doing high risk entries, I am carrying an AR regardless of the presence/threat of armor. The P90 doesn't even appear on my radar. Just sayin'

Vehicle mounted with other cool things.....

 

Ah, gotcha.  I just had visions of guys in black suits running around DC or some other metro city with MMGs and LMGs haha

Only thing I see the p90 has over a stand m4 is its smaller. But then you could just do a sbr ar and its probably right there in size

 

 

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Ah, gotcha.  I just had visions of guys in black suits running around DC or some other metro city with MMGs and LMGs haha

As awesome as that may sound for a movie, I don't think so. But... I don't doubt they have the capacity to do it if the need arises. I know a few agencies (Fed, state, local, and county) that have LMGs and MMGs in their armory

I didn't like the P90 at all when we ran it or the KRISS Vector. Cool designs but not really my thing. AR & MP5 is where its at....oh yeah and the UMP.

Quick rundown of small caliber PDW type ammo - 5.7 and 4.6 by Dr. Gary Roberts, arguably the number 1 guy out there today that is dealing with terminal ballistics from a gunfighting perspective. Granted this is a pistol thread and most of this write up deals with PDWs (P90/MP7). Hopefully, the realization the lack of ability of this round even with the advantages of the longer barrel/higher velocity, full auto capability and greater control afforded by a PDW vs a pistol is not overlooked. If it is this poor of a performer in a PDW, how much worse is it in a pistol?

 

10/13/11

 

Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play.

 

Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military:

 

quote:

”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”

 

Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:

 

quote:

”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.”

 

 

A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm FN P90's has written the following--note that his comments equally apply to the 4.6 mm MP7:

 

quote:

”The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm or other small caliber PDW systems”

 

- 30 P90's for five years

- 100,000 rounds per year through those weapons

- very reliable weapon

- very user friendly

- very easy to shoot

- everyone happy

- three OIS's later and some unbelievably poor terminal balistic performace we dropped them...quickly.

- 22+ OIS shootings using AR-15's with .223...everyone happy (except the 21 dead bad guys)."

 

 

As a result of poor terminal performance, a large Federal agency (SS) is also no longer running P90’s like they used to Likewise, some military units that tried small caliber PDW's in combat are procuring other options, like 9" .300 Blackout uppers to run on M4 lowers.

 

When a civilian LE agency chooses a full-auto system, significantly more time is needed for training. This increases costs, both in the amount of ammunition necessary to purchase, as well as the need to pay officers for increased time in training, rather than being in the field. Instead of a 1-5 shot NSR with an AR15 based system, with an MP7 each officer is now going to be routinely shooting 15-20+ rounds into each target both in training and in actual OIS incidents, thus the amount of ammo expended is going to be 4 times what would be used with an AR15 based system shooting any common CQB caliber like 5.56 mm, .300 Blackout, 6.8mm, or even 7.62x51mm. How is an LE agency going to afford four times more training ammo for a weapon system like the MP7 that needs to be always shot full auto and whose ammo is more expensive than other common calibers?

 

In the civilian realm, how is an LE agency going to explain to their Admin and media why they are now needing to shoot every suspect 15-20+ times? In addition, when you are having to shoot 15-20 rounds full-auto at every target, there is a higher likelihood that some of those rounds may miss the target; how is an LE agency going to handle the liability from the potential increased number of missed shots that can occur with a system that needs to be used full-auto like a "fire hose" in order to offer adequate incapacitation of threats?

 

With the data now available, a U.S. LE agency would have to be woefully ignorant or colossally stupid to purchase the MP7 (or P90) for SWAT use given the numerous weapon systems available for LE SWAT/CQB use that are both better and more cost effective than small caliber PDW's. If SBR's are desired, consider a 10-12" 5.56 mm using properly selected good quality barrier blind ammunition, 8-12" .300 Blackout uppers when appropriate LE ammo is finally released, even better get 8-12" 6.8 mm's uppers, or if you want to have the best terminal performance go with the new group of 16" .308 rifles like the KAC SR25 EMC, LaRue Predatar (or OBR for precision use), or the FN Mk17/SCAR-H using appropriate ammunition.

My P90 experience is quite dated but I will say the thing ran like a sewing machine! Thus I could see the application p o t e n t i a l l y in a very narrow corridor of application. Fast forward to now, there are probably better options. I would love to get hands on the HB . Roughly the same footprint as the HK's without all the cost and parts availability issues.

 

My SEAL buddies swear by the Sig  .........quote, 'finest handgun ever made' and 'only handgun I'd trust my life to'.....

 

If memory serves me correctly, the Sig is the only handgun to pass the grueling SEAL testing requirements with no malfunctions

Sigs are fine weapons. I jad a 229 with the DAK trigger and disliked it. I have experience on the full size platform also and don't really like DAK or DA/SA platforms. They are pretty guns.

My SEAL buddies swear by the Sig  .........quote, 'finest handgun ever made' and 'only handgun I'd trust my life to'.....

Most of the guys on Teams that I know/have met/trained with say they same. The follow up question of "what other handguns do you shoot or train with often to compare it to?" is often met with blank stares. A lot of the hardcore face shooters I know aren't gun guys. They shoot what they are given.

 

I like Sigs and would have no problem carrying one if I had to. With the little amount of time I have on them though, I do not shoot them very well at all, especially when compared to Glocks (I am issued a Glock, so I try to stay in that category - the whole "beware of the man with one gun" thing) my suckage can easily be remedied with a few thousand rounds and about 6 months of training.

Just ask Sargent York; 1911

Most of the guys on Teams that I know/have met/trained with say they same. The follow up question of "what other handguns do you shoot or train with often to compare it to?" is often met with blank stares. A lot of the hardcore face shooters I know aren't gun guys. They shoot what they are given.

 

I like Sigs and would have no problem carrying one if I had to. With the little amount of time I have on them though, I do not shoot them very well at all, especially when compared to Glocks (I am issued a Glock, so I try to stay in that category - the whole "beware of the man with one gun" thing) my suckage can easily be remedied with a few thousand rounds and about 6 months of training.

mine too...lol

 

I am a beretta guy and have only recently warmed to the glock.  I recently stripped one down and tinkered with it and came away impressed at it's simplicity and how the action covers the exposed areas. 

 

I've shot various sigs and really really like them but I will stick to my px4 and will get a 1911 at some point.  Right now I'm still practicing with my new cowboy SA. 

THe H&K MK23 was designed to fill a SEAL requirement and passes many grueling tests:

The MK23 Mod O .45 cal SOCOM offensive handgun was developed by H&K specifically for U.S. Special Operations Command, and in 1996 was adopted as a service pistol under the designation MK23 Mod.0. This is a .45 caliber weapon with excellent knock-down power and accuracy, but its tradeoff is that it’s larger, heavier and less wieldy than the Sig Sauer P226 and P228. The MK23 gives shooters absolute match grade accuracy, while it also exceeds the most stringent USG operational requirements for a combat handgun. The MK23 passed the following tests to ensure it would stand up to rigorous Navy SEAL use:

• 30,000 round endurance firing test with + P ammunition
• Extreme temperatures +73°C/-54°C (+ 160/-60 F)
• 96 hours saline mist test
• Sand, dust and sludge tests
• 96 hour surf simulation
• Harshest drop tests
• Accuracy and the highest precision

The MK23 is extremely reliable. In environmental testing, an unlubricated pistol was exposed to two hours of seawater at 66 feet, and in surf, sand, mud, and icing conditions. In firing testing, all pistols averaged 6,000 rounds between stoppage (MRBS). And in more than 450 accuracy test firings from a precision firing fixture, MK23 pistols far exceeded the USG requirement, averaging under 37mm.

The MK23 has a special recoil-reduction system, which softens recoil forces to the components and shooter by 40%. It is a double/single-action pistol with a 12-round magazine. It is designed to attach a KAC Sound Suppressor, which is so effective that U.S. SOF say that all they can hear when the gun is fired is the sound of the action. The MK23 can also attach a high-tech Laser Aiming Module (LAM) which consists of a 3-dot system of white, self-luminous tritium dots. The LAM operates in one of 4 selected modes: visible laser only; visible laser/flashlight; infrared laser only; and infrared laser/illuminator. The MK23 is kept in the armories of both the SEALs and the Special Boat Teams.

Specifications:

• Manufacturer: Heckler & Koch
• Caliber: 45 ACP
• Weight w/o magazine: 4.22 lbs. (w/suppressor)
• Length: 9.65 in. (16.56 w/suppressor)
• Barrel Length: 5.875 in.
• Capacity: 12+1