How well should you know someone before standing as a reference on their FID or P2P application?

 

The law says "presently acquainted."

 

To what degree of "acquainted" do YOU personally take that to mean?

 

Should you have been to the applicants home, to determine if they are crazy cat person?

 

Should you have had a meal with them, to determine if they are an alcoholic?

 

Should you have gone to a concert with them, or rave, to see if they use drugs?

 

I guess the bottom line is how well do any of us really know the people we give reference for, and how well do the people you ask to be your reference, really know you?

 

I'm very interested in how this discussion evolves.

 

 

I too wondered about this when I first saw the forms.  But they do say to the best of your knowledge, so you really don't even have to know the person at all.  Give your opinion, if you are wrong you are wrong.  Heck the person could be your best friend that you have known all your life, but if they wanted to keep you from knowing about their drug or arrest issues you might never know anyway.  The entire process is a stupid joke.

IMHO, just be honest.

 

As references, we're obviously NOT going to refer someone whom we think is unsuitable.

 

Anyone at anytime could engage in bad behavior, thats impossible to predict (unless its really really obvious, in which case we wouldnt refer them anyway).

 

Spend some time with the individual, meal etc.

Close to 40 views but only 2 replies.  C'mon guys...participate!

 

I'll give up a little more info...I offered myself as a reference to an acquaintance and the Detective seems...put off.

 

There is no right or wrong in this thread...just a sharing of ideas and discussion.

Ive wondered if there is any sort of liability involved in the references. Im sure they can get you on some type of falsification of gov documents or something.

 

I have a close group of 2 friends I've known for over a decade. We all used eachother for references.

Unless you're my neighbor that I see on a day to day basis, a best friend I've known for YEARS (10+) or a girl I used to 'hang out' with a lot back in the day.. sorry, no reference... too many people out there who are 2 or even 3 sided.. Don't want to feel responsible for something horrible, ever.

note to self...do not use Jrzyguy30 as a reference...

note to self...do not use Jrzyguy30 as a reference...

 

You can use him as a reference, but only after a successful cavity search. 

If I talk to you on a regular basis and i know you are of good character then I will do it.

You can use him as a reference, but only after a successful cavity search.

What do you consider successful?

There are a number of people I have told that I will NOT give a reference to.  If I don't think they take the responsibility seriously or if I have any doubt to their character, I wont do it. 

As far as the people I choose, it will be the people that I think will get the form back as quickly as possible.  

The question you are really answering is: "do I feel this person should enjoy the rights guaranteed by the second amendment?"

 

There are already plenty of people in government ready to answer 'no'.  For my own part, I figure most people should.  The background check should weed out most of the rest.  I've never been asked to provide a reference for anyone who worried me to the extent that I wouldn't do so (but then, I've not yet met everyone on the forum...)    :-) 

When you talk to people and know them you can pretty much tell if they are reference worthy or not. But if I barely know someone I am not going to give them a reference. 

 

However, I am looking forward to the day when the reference requirement is abolished because it's silly that you have to know someone to exercise your right. Also, your "friends" could easily turn on you and then no guns for you!

The only people I've been a reference for, or used as a reference, are people I've been to the range with.

One Cherry Hill friend (a new gun owner, by inheritance) used me as a reference and I wouldn't complete her form until I had guested her at the range and was sure she wasn't going to go looney just because of that evil piece of hardware!

 

As an NRA Certified Instructor, I hold myself to a slightly higher standard when asked to evaluate others when it comes to firearms. A bad day at the range can turn into a really bad day if everyone is not very careful.

Ive wondered if there is any sort of liability involved in the references. Im sure they can get you on some type of falsification of gov documents or something.

 

I have a close group of 2 friends I've known for over a decade. We all used eachother for references.

Well, you would have to KNOW there was a problem, and try to conceal it, in order to be falsifying anything. I don't see any way you would have any legal liability, as long as you were not aware of any "issues"

 

For example: If you were friends with Ted Bundy, in 1973, and vouched for him, I think you're in the clear. By all accounts, at that time, he was a fine upstanding citizen.

On the other hand, if he had confided in you that he killed someone, even though he hasn't been caught, and you vouched for him, in say late 1975... Then you got some 'splaining to do....

http://crime.about.com/od/serial/p/tedbundy.htm

 

I would say it is about plausible deniability. You aren't responsible for what you don't know. 

Generally if I have socialized a person for over a year I would reference them.  On the flip side though, you would be surprised as the amount of information people who live together don't share with each other, so even if you live with someone or known them since childhood sometimes you don't really know them.

When you talk to people and know them you can pretty much tell if they are reference worthy or not. But if I barely know someone I am not going to give them a reference. 

 

However, I am looking forward to the day when the reference requirement is abolished because it's silly that you have to know someone to exercise your right. Also, your "friends" could easily turn on you and then no guns for you!

This^^^^

Where does the second amendment list a "minimum friend requirement"?

In fact, one could argue that the first, via "freedom of association" (or the freedom to not associate) would be guarantee that no such requirement could be made.

so even if you live with someone or known them since childhood sometimes you don't really know them.

This is similar to what crossed my mind when I read shawnmoores reply.

 

How does anyone really know their neighbor?  Their friend?

I've only used friends that I've known for 10+ years easily and they use me for their references as well. I don't think I'd give a reference to someone I've known less then say 2-3 years

The question you are really answering is: "do I feel this person should enjoy the rights guaranteed by the second amendment?"

 

There are already plenty of people in government ready to answer 'no'. For my own part, I figure most people should. The background check should weed out most of the rest. I've never been asked to provide a reference for anyone who worried me to the extent that I wouldn't do so (but then, I've not yet met everyone on the forum...) :-)

^^^this. If the person worries me that much, I wouldn't associate with them.

 

I have more important things to worry about than if I think someone is "worthy" of my referral. There are enough useless beauracrats already overpaid to worry about that.

Here's the thing. You have to look at it this way. If its not a person I speak to regularly why would they ask me? Are the people that know him not willing too?

Again, there is no right or wrong answer.  At least I don't think there is one.  

 

To me this is just a thought provoking discussion.

Also I get asked a lot due to the fact that I'm an instructor but realistically that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

Are the people that know him not willing too?

Possibly.

 

What if his friends are staunch anti gun people?

 

For the sake of discussion, and this is all hypothetical...let's assume this guy is your dry cleaner, and you've been to his store every Saturday for the last 4 years to drop off your shirts and pick up the clean ones.  You exchange the typical pleasantries and are cordial.  Talk about the kids, what you did over the holiday's, bitch about the weather and cost of gas.

 

Then, one day he notices the NRA sticker on your car and asks about guns, and naturally, being the pro 2A person that you are (we all are this person so don't deny it) this leads to him expressing a desire to own and ask for you to be his referral.

 

Do you do it?

 

Again, 100% hypothetical situation, but a good example of how these things can transpire.

I would never be a referral for anyone I have not been out drinking with.  that's a great way to really see their personality.

 

But more seriously, if I would not trust them to be around my kids, I would never vouch for them.  And it takes a lot for me to trust someone to be around my kids.

 

The other side of the referral question is also valid.  because no sane person would ever ask someone to be a referral for them unless they knew that person would speak highly of them.  I guess that is where the crazy people have a disconnect, because they THINK that person will speak highly of them when the conversation with the investigator will be anything but.  So maybe the referral process is actually the first step to the mental health checks?

If they are commies then they are probably bad references from the start...

I would only be a reference to someone I trust on a ridiculous level..... I rarely vouch for anyone...

Possibly.

 

What if his friends are staunch anti gun people?

 

For the sake of discussion, and this is all hypothetical...let's assume this guy is your dry cleaner, and you've been to his store every Saturday for the last 4 years to drop off your shirts and pick up the clean ones.  You exchange the typical pleasantries and are cordial.  Talk about the kids, what you did over the holiday's, **** about the weather and cost of gas.

 

Then, one day he notices the NRA sticker on your car and asks about guns, and naturally, being the pro 2A person that you are (we all are this person so don't deny it) this leads to him expressing a desire to own and ask for you to be his referral.

 

Do you do it?

 

Again, 100% hypothetical situation, but a good example of how these things can transpire.

That. Or perhaps he/she would prefer to keep their private business private, at least from the people that they associate with most often, or perhaps to avoid family "drama",etc....

 

For instance, as a healthcare worker, I wouldn't want to seek treatment any place that I work, or might work in the near future. Preferably not for anything, but certainly not for anything potentially embarrassing. I recently needed a physical. For various reasons, I pretty much had to get it done at clinic I was going to work at that day, and for the rest of the week. I felt uncomfortable having to work with / face the same Dr. who had just done the 'ole hernia test on me. Yes, he was totally professional, but still, just kinda bugged me. I also don't like that several other co-workers now had access to my medical history, as part of the care they provided. Again, nobody did anything wrong, or unprofessional. It just kinda skeeved me out a bit.

 

Perhaps some might feel the same about people they see everyday knowing they have a gun, or guns.

Kinda boils down to the old adage of "Don't sh*t where you eat"

I would never be a referral for anyone I have not been out drinking with.  that's a great way to really see their personality.

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be a good thing if they DIDN'T drink? I mean, isn't the whole point of alcohol, is that it CHANGES your personality, at least temporarily? I don't know. I don't drink. I don't like the taste of alcohol, nor I do I see the appeal of the intoxicating effects....... Just saying, kinda seems like a counter-productive "litmus test".

You should not recommend someone if they've written a 20 page letter to the local PD.

I have numerous colleagues, many acquaintances and few friends......I give personal references to friends only.