My friend just asked me if you can carry a gun in a bar/pub in NJ? Assuming you have a NJ carry permit.

 

He said he was at a bar last night, older guy comes in with a pistol on his hip open carrying. Says he thinks the guy is a retired sheriffs officer. Guy was piss drunk on beer and shots and getting rowdy. So was he legal or breaking the law?

in any other state illegal......but in nj if you have a ccw license youre probably well connected and above worring about such "trivialities"....lol

You can't carry at any place that serves alcohol. Carry 101 google it

 

 

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Glad I'm not his insurance carrier.......

You can't carry at any place that serves alcohol. Carry 101 google it

 

 

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I believe it varies from state to state that's why I am asking about NJ. Like in VA. You can carry in a bar in VA but must make it obvious, hence the Virginia Tuck.

 

Correction: You can conceal carry in bars in VA. They changed the law recently. 3 other states allow bar carry, 18 other states allow restaurant carry that have bars, but you can't sit at the bar.

Dupe

If you had a CCW and you worked at a bar could you carry? I ask because I work in a bar and we stay pretty late at night cleaning up, sometimes until 1am and it would be the ideal time for a break in and I find myself wishing I was armed just in case.

If you had a CCW and you worked at a bar could you carry? I ask because I work in a bar and we stay pretty late at night cleaning up, sometimes until 1am and it would be the ideal time for a break in and I find myself wishing I was armed just in case.

Only if you are the OWNER of the bar.

beer and pub never a good combination in any situation

My friend just asked me if you can carry a gun in a bar/pub in NJ? Assuming you have a NJ carry permit.

He said he was at a bar last night, older guy comes in with a pistol on his hip open carrying. Says he thinks the guy is a retired sheriffs officer. Guy was piss drunk on beer and shots and getting rowdy. So was he legal or breaking the law?

It should be covered by agency General Orders. If he is retired, I don't know how it works. I don't think LEOSA or the retired officer guidelines says either way. I am still active and according to my General Orders I can - and will - carry in a bar, but I can't - and won't - drink. I basically stopped drinking because I carry 24/7. Now, I will only drink at home, or if it is a planned thing, I am leaving my gizmo at home. Even then 2 beers is my limit.

 

Drinking/being Drunk with a gun is a no-go.

It should be covered by agency General Orders. If he is retired, I don't know how it works. I don't think LEOSA or the retired officer guidelines says either way. I am still active and according to my General Orders I can - and will - carry in a bar, but I can't - and won't - drink. I basically stopped drinking because I carry 24/7. Now, I will only drink at home, or if it is a planned thing, I am leaving my gizmo at home. Even then 2 beers is my limit.

 

Drinking/being Drunk with a gun is a no-go.

Same here for me, except I don't ever drink. Only places that are a no go for carrying is a casino, racetrack, or the OTB.

you can definitely drink and carry in PA...  I have on several occasions...

 

understand there is an enormous difference between 2 drinks.. and 20.. 

you can definitely drink and carry in PA...  I have on several occasions...

 

understand there is an enormous difference between 2 drinks.. and 20..

 

Until you shoot someone?

 

And a lawyer asks you "So Mr. Defendant, how many drinks did you have again? And what made you think it was a good idea to drink while carrying a loaded GUN."

you can definitely drink and carry in PA...  I have on several occasions...

 

understand there is an enormous difference between 2 drinks.. and 20.. 

+1 If I can still legally drive I am fine to carry

It should be covered by agency General Orders. If he is retired, I don't know how it works. I don't think LEOSA or the retired officer guidelines says either way. I am still active and according to my General Orders I can - and will - carry in a bar, but I can't - and won't - drink. I basically stopped drinking because I carry 24/7. Now, I will only drink at home, or if it is a planned thing, I am leaving my gizmo at home. Even then 2 beers is my limit.

 

Drinking/being Drunk with a gun is a no-go.

So if someone called the cops on this guy, is it likely he would of been arrested?

Until you shoot someone?

And a lawyer asks you "So Mr. Defendant, how many drinks did you have again? And what made you think it was a good idea to drink while carrying a loaded GUN."

The law makes me think that....

 

If you have to wake up in the earliest hours of the morning to do something... And are maybe not %100 do you still carry your gun? Or do you say.... I'd rather be defenseless than have a gun and be operating at less than perfect...

 

It's silly to me to think that you can have a couple of glasses of wine... Legally drive to and from... But somehow lose the right to carry a firearm...

So if someone called the cops on this guy, is it likely he would of been arrested?

 I don't think it is necessarily a crime to be armed while intoxicated if you are legally allowed to be armed in the first place. There should be some kind of administrative punishment involved, but if he is retired, I am not sure what would happen. I doubt he would be arrested, but If the owner of the bar or an employee called, and stated that there is a drunk retired guy carrying a gun and that he is not wanted in the establishment, that should sove the problem.

 

 

The law makes me think that....

If you have to wake up in the earliest hours of the morning to do something... And are maybe not %100 do you still carry your gun? Or do you say.... I'd rather be defenseless than have a gun and be operating at less than perfect...

It's silly to me to think that you can have a couple of glasses of wine... Legally drive to and from... But somehow lose the right to carry a firearm...

Being sleepy is not a measurable fact. A BAC content is measurable, and admissible, and usually one of the first things they look for after a shooting - especially at a bar or restaurant.

 

Being drunk is a concious decision you make beforehand, being woken up in the middle of the night is not.

 

While both a car and a firearm are weapons and can take a life - you can not equate them. They are not even close to being similar in use, in licensing, and in familiarity with most citizens. Most people can see themselves driving after a beer or two, most people can not see themselves carrying a gun, let alone drinking while doing so. The mere presence of a gun frightens most people at an irrational level without alcohol being involved.

 

If you think that having a few drinks - even if you aren't drunk (how does the person drinking decide what drunk is anyway? Do you give yourself HGN and SFSTs before each drink to see if this is the one that tips the scales from sober to buzzed, or buzzed to drunk? "Is this next drink the one that would slow my reflexes and cloud my judgement or was it the last one?") - and risking getting involved in a shooting won't be a problem for you in a civil or criminal trial, then go for it. You are a big boy and will make your own decisions.

 

Personally, why would you even want to open that can of worms? Why even put that doubt in the head of a judge or jury? Do you think most people, especially people who are not often around guns and aren't comfortable with them, would think it is a responsible act to drink while armed? Even if technically not illegal it points to maturity, mindset, decision making process and your condition at the time of an incident - which is all allowable in a trial.

 

So, let me ask you this: should Cops be able to have a beer or two on duty, as long as they don't get drunk?

 

You'd rather be defenseless than have a gun and be operating at less than perfect?

I would rather be 100% perfect and be able to defend myself. That is why I don't drink out at bars or restaurants.

I don't think it is necessarily a crime to be armed while intoxicated if you are legally allowed to be armed in the first place. There should be some kind of administrative punishment involved, but if he is retired, I am not sure what would happen. I doubt he would be arrested, but If the owner of the bar or an employee called, and stated that there is a drunk retired guy carrying a gun and that he is not wanted in the establishment, that should sove the problem.

 

Being sleepy is not a measurable fact. A BAC content is measurable, and admissible, and usually one of the first things they look for after a shooting - especially at a bar or restaurant.

Being drunk is a concious decision you make beforehand, being woken up in the middle of the night is not.

While both a car and a firearm are weapons and can take a life - you can not equate them. They are not even close to being similar in use, in licensing, and in familiarity with most citizens. Most people can see themselves driving after a beer or two, most people can not see themselves carrying a gun, let alone drinking while doing so. The mere presence of a gun frightens most people at an irrational level without alcohol being involved.

If you think that having a few drinks - even if you aren't drunk (how does the person drinking decide what drunk is anyway? Do you give yourself HGN and SFSTs before each drink to see if this is the one that tips the scales from sober to buzzed, or buzzed to drunk? "Is this next drink the one that would slow my reflexes and cloud my judgement or was it the last one?") - and risking getting involved in a shooting won't be a problem for you in a civil or criminal trial, then go for it. You are a big boy and will make your own decisions.

Personally, why would you even want to open that can of worms? Why even put that doubt in the head of a judge or jury? Do you think most people, especially people who are not often around guns and aren't comfortable with them, would think it is a responsible act to drink while armed? Even if technically not illegal it points to maturity, mindset, decision making process and your condition at the time of an incident - which is all allowable in a trial.

So, let me ask you this: should Cops be able to have a beer or two on duty, as long as they don't get drunk?

 

I would rather be 100% perfect and be able to defend myself. That is why I don't drink out at bars or restaurants.

First of all most of the stuff you said about people's perception of firearms may be regional.... People open and conceal carry here... You see guns..., you will even occasionally see them in bars and restaurants.... So there is not some automatic bias towards guns....

 

Why would I have a couple of drinks and carry a gun? Because I have no idea when I might need a gun... So I carry one EVERY day... ALL of the time that I'm legally allowed to.... Because having a couple of drinks in me and being able to shoot back is better than having a couple of drinks in me and not being able to...

 

I am 6ft 2in 230lb... I can consume a couple of drinks with dinner and not be drunk.... Maybe I am not %100... But there are a million other times when I'm not %100... Driving home late After a concert for example.... I bet I am better at 2pm on a nice sunny afternoon... But hey life is not perfect.... I carry a gun because it is my right to do so....

 

Do you know of any examples where a clean shoot resulted in prosecution because the shooter had consumed a small amount of alcohol? By small lets say an amount small enough to still be able to legally drive?

 

Actually to take it a giant leap forward... You leave your gun at home since you know your going to drink a LOT... You come home and go to bed... Are awoken an hour later (still intoxicated)... Burglar with a gun in your house... You shoot him dead... Someone cares because you are drunk?

 

I get that in an ideal world you will need to deploy a gun to defend yourself in a nice brightly lit field..... Maybe after a nice breakfast and a cup of coffee.... Bit we don't live in an ideal world...

You are not tracking. My issue with drinking while carrying has nothing to do with getting in a gunfight in less than ideal circumstances or at less than 100% - That will happen. We don't get in gunfights on bright sunny days with cottonball clouds floating across and impossibly blue sky over rivers of chocolate and trees that give beer.

 

My issue is dealing with the aftermath of the shooting and making that whole process tougher because you have given a prosecutor, an attorney, the family of the other party, a jury or a judge a chink in your armor. A way in. A sliver of doubt to present to the courts about your ability, your mindset, and your decision making process. You cold be 100% justified and in the right, but a slam dunk justified shooting has now turned into an uphill battle to prove you are not a drunk with an itchy trigger finger.

 

You can't compare a shooting at home to one while out, either after a few drinks.

 

Someone coming into your home is out of your control. You can not predict it, you can not plan for it, you did not choose for that to happen. You are in your home where there is an expectation of privacy and security. You didn't go out surrounding yourself with unknown situations with variables out of your control. You are in your home, with people you know, and someone makes their decision to come into your home.

 

Going out on purpose and having a few drinks while armed is completely under your control. You can choose not to be armed, or not to drink. You have chosen to surround yourself with strangers and place yourself at the mercy of their will and chosen to ingest a substance that carries a stigma of lowering inhibitions and making people short tempered, even in small amounts, and you chose to do this while carrying a firearm.

 

No, I don't have any specific examples of this happening. I don't keep that stuff handy and I don't have access to court proceedings of every shooting out there. Do you have any specific examples of an incident where someone had a small amount of alcohol in their system while involved in a shooting and it did not make the trial tougher and put the shooter and his family through extra hell?

 

I carry a gun every day, all the time as well. In fact I carry 2. I have also chosen not to drink out while carrying. I refuse to put my family through that extra torment because I wanted a beer.

 

You still haven't answered my question, if it is no big deal, should Cops be allowed a couple of beers in duty?

You are not tracking. My issue with drinking while carrying has nothing to do with getting in a gunfight in less than ideal circumstances or at less than 100% - That will happen. We don't get in gunfights on bright sunny days with cottonball clouds floating across and impossibly blue sky over rivers of chocolate and trees that give beer.

My issue is dealing with the aftermath of the shooting and making that whole process tougher because you have given a prosecutor, an attorney, the family of the other party, a jury or a judge a chink in your armor. A way in. A sliver of doubt to present to the courts about your ability, your mindset, and your decision making process. You cold be 100% justified and in the right, but a slam dunk justified shooting has now turned into an uphill battle to prove you are not a drunk with an itchy trigger finger.

You can't compare a shooting at home to one while out, either after a few drinks.

Someone coming into your home is out of your control. You can not predict it, you can not plan for it, you did not choose for that to happen. You are in your home where there is an expectation of privacy and security. You didn't go out surrounding yourself with unknown situations with variables out of your control. You are in your home, with people you know, and someone makes their decision to come into your home.

Going out on purpose and having a few drinks while armed is completely under your control. You can choose not to be armed, or not to drink. You have chosen to surround yourself with strangers and place yourself at the mercy of their will and chosen to ingest a substance that carries a stigma of lowering inhibitions and making people short tempered, even in small amounts, and you chose to do this while carrying a firearm.

No, I don't have any specific examples of this happening. I don't keep that stuff handy and I don't have access to court proceedings of every shooting out there. Do you have any specific examples of an incident where someone had a small amount of alcohol in their system while involved in a shooting and it did not make the trial tougher and put the shooter and his family through extra hell?

I carry a gun every day, all the time as well. In fact I carry 2. I have also chosen not to drink out while carrying. I refuse to put my family through that extra torment because I wanted a beer.

You still haven't answered my question, if it is no big deal, should Cops be allowed a couple of beers in duty?

No you should not be allowed to drink alcohol at work... Because while being paid it is reasonable that an employer can set certain expectations... While you are on the clock....

 

When you compare home and outside you are ignoring one key point... And that is the law...

In PA the law does not disallow entering an establishment that serves alcohol...

In PA the law does not disallow alcohol consumption while carrying...

 

This is the law.... If PA viewed it as an issue they would address it as some states have...

Further you say it is my choice to go out.. Into the public... In PA I can have a gun... And defend myself both inside and out of the home... People do not choose to be victims... They do not choose to interact with criminals.... They choose to live their lives as a normal person would.... It is the criminal that chooses to attack me.... It is that individual choosing to attack me... In my home... While jogging... Or.. At a bar....

 

I respect that you choose not to drink out... That's your right you can do whatever you want....

? Where did I ever say it was illegal to go into an establishment that serves alcohol while armed or to consume alcoholic beverages while armed. I said that personally thought it was a poor choice, not against the law.

 

You see no difference in personal security and situational awareness inside and outside your home? You don't see a differenc in the potential effects of dulling your senses and decreasing your ability to make decision inside and outside our home?

 

You also don't see people that change from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde after a few drinks?

 

So, if my administration was OK with it and my General Orders allowed me to drink two beers per 8 hours on shift you would see that as acceptable and that it would have no effect on my decision making process especially when dealing with potential DPF situations?

? Where did I ever say it was illegal to go into an establishment that serves alcohol while armed or to consume alcoholic beverages while armed. I said that personally thought it was a poor choice, not against the law.

You see no difference in personal security and situational awareness inside and outside your home? You don't see a differenc in the potential effects of dulling your senses and decreasing your ability to make decision inside and outside our home?

You also don't see people that change from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde after a few drinks?

So, if my administration was OK with it and my General Orders allowed me to drink two beers per 8 hours on shift you would see that as acceptable and that it would have no effect on my decision making process especially when dealing with potential DPF situations?

Some people can consume one beer and be "out of it" other people can consume several and operate at an almost normal level.... It really depends on the individual....that is where personal responsibility comes in... If you are an individual that never consumes it... And you plan to have a few beers with some friends... Then sure... Maybe carrying a gun is a bad idea...I can definitely agree with that...

 

My point to you which keeps getting lost in the discussion is this... There are people that can consume a couple of drinks with dinner and still be sharp enough to shoot with the best of them.... If you are an individual like that... Then having a couple of drinks would probably be of no consequence...

 

You said there is a difference between being out and in your house... And sure I agree... But your assertion is that alcohol is THE factor... That it creates doubt.... If it creates doubt then it really wouldn't matter where you are.... A slimy lawyer could say his client was putting down his weapon but since you were drunk ( in your home) you misjudged and shot him.... I'm sorry but if you are claiming alcohol is a factor it could be the factor in any shoot,.. In and out of the home.... At the end of the day I choose to live my life as normal.. While carrying a gun... And it is normal to have a drink or two with dinner....

There are people that can consume a couple of drinks with dinner and still be sharp enough to shoot with the best of them....

 

Your ability to shoot after a drink or two has Jack and Squat to do with what I am talking about. You are not judged on whether you hit your mark and gave your attacker a clean death or you merely winged him. Your actions are not deemed appropriate simply because you center punched him and you are not automatically considered sober because you burned your adversary down with a sub 2 second Bill Drill.

 

The decision making process you went through to determine if you should shoot or not along with your ability to cleanly move through those thought processes without the taint of alcohol (A substance that is known to lower inhibitions and to make people more prone to violence and bad devisions) is one factor that will point towards innocence or guilt at trial. It will also give any prosecuting attorney or opposing counsel an opening to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of those responsible for determining your fate.

 

Again, So, if my administration was OK with it and my General Orders allowed me to drink two beers per 8 hours on shift as a Co you would see that as acceptable and that it would have no effect on my decision making process especially when dealing with potential DPF situations?

 

Other professionals drink during the work day, why can't Cops?

Your ability to shoot after a drink or two has Jack and Squat to do with what I am talking about. You are not judged on whether you hit your mark and gave your attacker a clean death or you merely winged him. Your actions are not deemed appropriate simply because you center punched him and you are not automatically considered sober because you burned your adversary down with a sub 2 second Bill Drill.

The decision making process you went through to determine if you should shoot or not along with your ability to cleanly move through those thought processes without the taint of alcohol (A substance that is known to lower inhibitions and to make people more prone to violence and bad devisions) is one factor that will point towards innocence or guilt at trial. It will also give any prosecuting attorney or opposing counsel an opening to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of those responsible for determining your fate.

Again, So, if my administration was OK with it and my General Orders allowed me to drink two beers per 8 hours on shift as a Co you would see that as acceptable and that it would have no effect on my decision making process especially when dealing with potential DPF situations?

Other professionals drink during the work day, why can't Cops?

No I don't think it is generally ok for polic to have a beer or two during the job because some individuals can't have a half of beer and still function...

 

I am not shooting anyone unless my life is in immediate danger...

As in someone has a weapon and is threatening me with it... So all the lawyers in the world can argue I jumped the gun in using deadly force but its going to be a hard argument with witnesses and an armed attacker....

 

I am not drawing a gun to break up a bar fight....

I am drawing a gun because someone is presenting an immediate threat...

No I don't think it is generally ok for polic to have a beer or two during the job because some individuals can't have a half of beer and still function...

 

My administration says it is OK. My General Orders specifically state "An Officer or Sgt, while working and in Uniform may have 2 beers per 8 hour shift, and no more that 3 in a 12 hour shift as long as there is more that 2 hours between each alcoholic beverage."****

 

Should I or Shouldn't I? Or is this just another example - like many other things in life - of "just because I am permitted to, doesn't mean I should."

 

I know I can handle two beers, and still shoot like a house on fire, so it is Ok for me right? I will know when I had too many and will take myself out of service and off the road.

 

Or, how about just one? Surely cops can handle just one beer.

 

I am not shooting anyone unless my life is in immediate danger...

As in someone has a weapon and is threatening me with it... So all the lawyers in the world can argue I jumped the gun in using deadly force but its going to be a hard argument with witnesses and an armed attacker....

I am not drawing a gun to break up a bar fight....

I am drawing a gun because someone is presenting an immediate threat...

How do you think the Zimmerman trial would have gone if they did blood work and he had a .02 BAC?

 

He didn't draw until he had to. By all accounts he didn't pull until his life was in danger, he didn't approach Martin with his blaster out, and was leaving the area when was attacked. Martin did not have a weapon, but DPF was indicated.

 

So, Alcohol in your system, even a little bit, will have no affect on your judgement on what is and is not an immediate threat? There is science and plenty of experts out there that would disagree. Do you believe anyone who opposes the shooting will believe you when you say "I just had 2 beers, I wasn't drunk."?

 

**** ETA: Point of order - My admin is not ok with it and my GOs don't say anything of the sort regarding allowing me to have alcoholic beverages in Uniform. We are not even allowed to sit in a restaurant for dinner of they serve alcohol. It was brought up as a discussion point only, not an endorsement or admission of drinking on duty.

Edited August 30, 201313 yr by High Exposure

My administration says it is OK. My General Orders specifically state "An Officer or Sgt, while working and in Uniform may have 2 beers per 8 hour shift, and no more that 3 in a 12 hour shift as long as there is more that 2 hours between each alcoholic beverage."

Should I or Shouldn't I? Or is this just another example - like many other things in life - of "just because I am permitted to, doesn't mean I should."

I know I can handle two beers, and still shoot like a house on fire, so it is Ok for me right? I will know when I had too many and will take myself out of service and off the road.

Or, how about just one? Surely cops can handle just one beer.

 

How do you think the Zimmerman trial would have gone if they did blood work and he had a .02 BAC?

He didn't draw until he had to. By all accounts he didn't pull until his life was in danger, he didn't approach Martin with his blaster out, and was leaving the area when was attacked. Martin did not have a weapon, but DPF was indicated.

So, Alcohol in your system, even a little bit, will have no affect on your judgement on what is and is not an immediate threat? There is science and plenty of experts out there that would disagree. Do you believe anyone who opposes the shooting will believe you when you say "I just had 2 beers, I wasn't drunk."?

When an individual carries they are carrying for their own protection...

When you are at work you are tasked with everyone else's safety....

 

So even being the tiniest bit off is probably not in your best interest.... Everything with your argument exists in extremes.... Oh if you legally carry while out to dinner... That like a cop drinking at work... When in reality it is not.... The more important question is if you and I went and had this discussion over a beer... Would I be concerned about you carrying? Nope... I have been out with police... Air Martials... That drank more than a beer or two....

 

People carry guns in preparation of the worst case scenario... The worst case scenario can occur anywhere... So ill take my chances....

the law that covers retired cops is clear and number 6 answers your question.

 

in accordance with 18 USC § 926C,^[5] a "qualified retired law enforcement officer" is an individual who:

1. separated from service in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer;
   
2. before such separation, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice);
   
3. before such separation, served as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 years or more; or separated from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;
   
4. during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State;
   
5. has not been officially found by a qualified medical professional employed by the agency to be unqualified for reasons relating to mental health and as a result of this finding will not be issued photographic identification; or has not entered into an agreement with the agency from which the individual is separating from service in which that individual acknowledges he or she is not qualified under this section for reasons relating to mental health and for those reasons will not receive or accept photographic identification;
   
6. is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
   
7. is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
   

That is the LEOSA law. I am curious what will apply in NJ as a retired NJ Officer carrying under our own retired Officers program.

 

http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_ret.html

 

Intriguing, that the LEOSA ruling does not say drunk, it says under the influence. What defines under the influence I wonder?

Some define as any amount of alcohol in system.

Some define as any amount of alcohol in system.

 

Precisely.