December 5, 201312 yr In reality, in a SHTF scenario, what exactly would John Q. Citizen be storming? It's any interesting discussion, one weapon vs. the other, but the chances of storming anything or establishing a defensive position for a standoff is rather moot, if not suicidal. I say again, Model T or Jeep? even if you don't plan to climb rocky hills, which one makes more sense?
December 5, 201312 yr Yes, I am familiar with a Winchester 1895 Levergun. I still see nothing about them being an issued item to the USMC. There is a lot about Russians, Latvians, Spanish Republicans, and what not. Maybe I am missing it... The only Model 1895 rifle issued to the USMC that I know of was the Winchester produced Lee-Navy M1895 straight pull bolt gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Lee_Navy) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps#Retired
December 5, 201312 yr Which do u think they would have preferred back then. The lever or AR? Haha. Good question.
December 5, 201312 yr hold on a second here, you need to ask the following questions; which is more reliable..........................................lever will require less maintence.....................lever will have longer parts life........................toss up ease of use............................................lever parts availability......................................AR ammo availability....................................toss up The reason Marines don't storm beaches with lever actions is obvious but let's not forget, they will get spare parts etc if needed. In the ops question, one has to assume you may not so it's a determinant factor.
December 5, 201312 yr hold on a second here, you need to ask the following questions; which is more reliable..........................................lever will require less maintence.....................lever will have longer parts life........................toss up ease of use............................................lever parts availability......................................AR ammo availability....................................toss up The reason Marines don't storm beaches with lever actions is obvious but let's not forget, they will get spare parts etc if needed. In the ops question, one has to assume you may not so it's a determinant factor. Please back your statements. There are published numbers for mean rounds to failure of parts and so on for the AR platform. Please provide the numbers of the lever gun. Like how many rounds before the bolt fails? How do you define "reliability"? Just to be clear, you are saying that the military carries spare parts in their pack so they can service their guns mid firefight, but if they didn't have said parts they would be better served by leverguns? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Also seriously .. ease of use? Have you ever shot one prone, off side, etc? Its good to know that ergonomics have been perfected 120 years ago or so.
December 5, 201312 yr Please back your statements. There are published numbers for mean rounds to failure of parts and so on for the AR platform. Please provide the numbers of the lever gun. Like how many rounds before the bolt fails? How do you define "reliability"? Just to be clear, you are saying that the military carries spare parts in their pack so they can service their guns mid firefight, but if they didn't have said parts they would be better served by leverguns? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Also seriously .. ease of use? Have you ever shot one prone, off side, etc? Its good to know that ergonomics have been perfected 120 years ago or so. agree... calling BS on lever being easier to use... AR - point and click.. lever - point click then cycle gun manually certainly not easier..
December 5, 201312 yr Ammo availability is a toss up? Are you on crack? I mean the component manufacturers cut back .223 bullet production to make heads for .35 wheelen right? Oh wait. They basically eliminated production of them to make .233 and .30 heads (and not ones suitable for .30-30) And they did that because everyone and their neighbor was stockpiling .30-30 and .45-70? No it was because people were stockpiling .223. Unless you are counting .22lr lever guns, but even then I can score .233 easier than .22 right now.
December 6, 201312 yr At least with lever you know its gonna cycle and not go "click....o shit" you never KNOW that... and ill take the oh shit malfunction clear on an AR VS the oh shit I need to reload on a lever gun..
December 6, 201312 yr AR, no contest. And I love levers. But c'mon. You can easily use an AR at 300 yards even with iron sights. At extended ranges, you'll pick off your lever action buddy before he even figures out his hold over.
December 6, 201312 yr At least with lever you know its gonna cycle and not go "click....o shit"I have put 10s of thousands of rounds through ARs. I have never had a malfunction that wasn't purposefully set up by me for training purposes. I did have to install a new action spring once in the middle of a 3 day class. The carbine - an issued Colt M4 had around 7500 rounds through it - was showing sins of weak and inconsistent ejection, but the gun still ran right up to when I swapped the spring. Do you have or have heard of a levergun that has 7500 rounds before it's first issue? I have fired maybe 200 rounds through friend's leverguns - a Winchester, a Marlin, and a Remlin in .30-30, .38/.357, and .45-70 respectively. I had multiple malfunctions on all three, one of which required serious work and new parts to get the gun running again. By my friend's account, they were all maintained well and had moderate round counts at the time. To sum up - I have had many more "clicks" than "bangs" with leverguns than with my AR, even though I have given the AR many more chances to fail. I trust my carbines completely and I will take my chances of finding parts to keep it running, if necessary, with the most popular civilian owned firearm in the nation.
December 6, 201312 yr As far as reliability, the last time I was at the range three weeks ago my Marlin jammed twice, not typical but they're not jam proof.
December 6, 201312 yr For some reason when I picture lever guns I think of Taggart (Slim Pickens) riding up to the Petomane thruway toll and asking someone to go back and get a sh!tload of dimes..(disclaimer ..I own a true Marlin 336 and love it..but wouldnt trust my life with it)
December 6, 201312 yr Which do u think they would have preferred back then. The lever or AR? A Kentucky long rifle because they don't jam [sic].
December 6, 201312 yr Usnmars or Parker, anything else on those USMC Winchester 1895 leverguns? I am curious and I still can't find anything on them...
December 6, 201312 yr Usnmars or Parker, anything else on those USMC Winchester 1895 leverguns? I am curious and I still can't find anything on them... The only use in the military was the 100 guns that went to the Philippines for use by the Army. It's noted in the link I posted. As for the reliability of the Marlin's, maybe mine's an exception, but my .444 has gone bang every time I've pulled the trigger since I got it new in the early 80's. I've certainly put more than 200 rounds through it in those years but certainly not tens of thousands of rounds. It can push full-house handloads of 265 gr. SP's @ 2300fps, or squib 240 gr. lead loads @ <1,100fps that are extremely accurate for short range, and Remington Express 2 1/2" .410's can be single-loaded if you want it to be a short-range "shotgun." It actually patterns 7 1/2's pretty well out to about 10 yds. The straight wall cases are easy to reload and brass isn't overworked and lasts a long time. I think it's a pretty versatile tool. It offers a different version of firepower.
December 6, 201312 yr The only use in the military was the 100 guns that went to the Philippines for use by the Army. It's noted in the link I posted. As for the reliability of the Marlin's, maybe mine's an exception, but my .444 has gone bang every time I've pulled the trigger since I got it new in the early 80's. I've certainly put more than 200 rounds through it in those years but certainly not tens of thousands of rounds. It can push full-house handloads of 265 gr. SP's @ 2300fps, or squib 240 gr. lead loads @ <1,100fps that are extremely accurate for short range, and Remington Express 2 1/2" .410's can be single-loaded if you want it to be a short-range "shotgun." It actually patterns 7 1/2's pretty well out to about 10 yds. The straight wall cases are easy to reload and brass isn't overworked and lasts a long time. I think it's a pretty versatile tool. It offers a different version of firepower. I put 200 rounds through my ar in an afternoon....
December 6, 201312 yr Some people have visions of playing call of duty in real life, and some have done it in real life. I for one have used the 16 in the butthole of the world and it let me and my crew down frequently. Everything from hajji being drugged up and getting hit multiple times with a 556 but still stays in the fight, to seeing American servivemen either killed or injured because of failures of their weapon. Trust me from experience being in the shit isnt like a video game or being at the range at cherry ridge, you get dirt and dust in places you never thought you could get dirt, and in real life nothing is worse than a weapon failure. Nothing is like having to shout to your crew that your weapon jammed, and hearing someone else shout back me too. There is more to weapons reliability testing than youtube videos, ar15.com, and shooting at the range. I carried one in real life and seen all of its inadequacies in real life, i for one will never carry one again if my life depends on it
December 6, 201312 yr Either a 14 or an ak, both have proven track records for reliability and stopping power
December 6, 201312 yr Either a 14 or an ak, both have proven track records for reliability and stopping power +1
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