So my steps are falling apart, probably from putting salt on them. I'm guessing they are concrete blocks based on how they're crumbling. I was hoping there is a mason on here that can advise if it's worth trying to repair them, or just to replace them. This is new to me as I'm a first time home owner that purchased the home in August.

im not a mason, but I would try to replace them individually. 

Do they look like concrete? I don't know where to get replacements. Doing it myself  shouldn't be too difficult. Famous last words.

Chris, I have the exact same issue. So I am eager to learn the outcome as well.

Consider pre-cast concrete

They are formed concrete pavers. Unfortunately, you need to replace them as the concrete seems a low psi, porous mix (hence the cracking from salt/water). You can make a form and pour new ones if you do not need to replace all.

Do they look like concrete? I don't know where to get replacements. Doing it myself shouldn't be too difficult. Famous last words.

 

They are keystone block concrete type steps. RP Smith on route10 & Commerce blvd. (across the street from the Hess station in Succunanna). Has every size shape and color your heart could imagine. My neighbor Dewey works there. Bet that's exactly where they came from originally. Make sure you get the adhesive to glue down the new ones. Don't throw salt on them after you replace them. If you're looking for someone to replace the treads for you I know a guy, be happy to recommend to you. But it's actually a pretty easy project if your mildly handy.

 

These are known as Segmental Retaining Wall (SRW) blocks. They are not intended to be "wet laid" or mortared together, rather they are intended to be "dry laid" and glued together with paver bond. It appears that at least some of the blocks were mortared together, which can cause them to crack. The disintegration of the blocks you are experiencing is from ice melters being used on them. The block manufacturers are getting away from recommending SRW wall caps (which is what these are) being used as stair treads since the PSI they are made under does not make them dense enough to withstand salt and other ice melters. They are now selling wet cast stair treads that are double to triple the density of SRW wall caps for this application.

 

If you are only going to replace a few, you will need to figure out who made them or they are not going to fit or be the correct height. Do you have any of the blocks (not the caps) laying around or in a wall some where? If you can send me some good photos of the blocks I may be able to ID them for you and steer you to the correct dealer who sells them. Pictures of the top, bottom and back of the blocks will help greatly.

Probably Grinnell or Cambridge in his neck of the woods.

As said above, they aren't that hard to replace if you can find the right block. 

 

As for not using melter on them, after falling down my stairs twice this year(and using melters), next year I'm going with http://heattrak.com/

 

For a couple hundred bucks you never have to worry about clearing your stairs again.

As said above, they aren't that hard to replace if you can find the right block.

 

As for not using melter on them, after falling down my stairs twice this year(and using melters), next year I'm going with http://heattrak.com/

 

For a couple hundred bucks you never have to worry about clearing your stairs again.

I can do radiant heat under stairs, sidewalks, and driveways. I install snow melt systems in Mendham, Alpine, and Upper Saddle river all the time. Set the system to 50° and it melts as it falls. No more rock salt, snow shovel, plow guy, or snow blower. Sit inside the house and watch the neighborhood break their backs, & admire your wet driveway! The last one I did came out to around $30K.

 

I felt bad for you this winter when you posted the security camera footage falling down the steps.

 

I can do radiant heat under stairs, sidewalks, and driveways. I install snow melt systems in Mendham, Alpine, and Upper Saddle river all the time. Set the system to 50° and it melts as it falls. No more rock salt, snow shovel, plow guy, or snow blower. Sit inside the house and watch the neighborhood break their backs, & admire your wet driveway! The last one I did came out to around $30K. I felt bad for you this winter when you posted the security camera footage falling down the steps.

 

Hmm. If I could figure out to plumb into my steps, I could add a new zone to the boiler...but then I'd have to run anti-freeze in the system, eh, probably too much work.

 

As for falling, I felt bad too. heh.  The 2nd time was only down the last step, but I resolved that that, was that.   I think I will run an outdoor outlet near the front to plug it in, but at $75/tread for 3 treads and an adapter for like $50, it's under $300 insurance towards preventing a future injury.

Mark - if i were to design it, you would run a heat exchanger with a dedicated snow melt loop - this allows you to do two things - maintain the snow loop temp at a much lower temp and also separates the glycol loop from the non-glycol loop.

I usually just add a second small boiler for snow melt systems. Glycol in the entire system is not a big deal either. It's cheap, and the entire house is protected from freezing should the system go down if you were away. I probably did 25 freez-ups this winter on homes people were living in. When it's negative 16° outside, things happen that don't usually during normal winters. I sold a lot of gallons of glycol this winter. That's a whole lot cheaper than having me come out with a thaw machine, for hours in the middle of the night. Glycol is cheap insurance against those types of problems. If you get the ratio right it actually conveys heat better as well. That is if you hire a plumber that can actually do math lol. I cheat and use a computer program, so it's perfect every time. I'm kind of a perfectionist about that type of stuff.

 

Heat exchangers work well if your dealing with a small area like a driveway apron. Or a short sidewalk/steps. It's tricky to bring back the colder radiant water to the boiler running at 180°. Add that water back in too fast and you can easily crack the boiler. I have to design mixing valve injection systems for that to slowly incorporate that cooler water back into the system. That's a bunch of mechanical crap that's going to break eventually. In the long run its actually cheaper to add a second boiler in most cases. Just what I've found over the past two decades of designing, installing and maintaining these types of systems.

 

I'm plum out of space for another boiler.   After I figured out all the codes, I had about 12 inches of leeway as to where I could exhaust it.   Right now there's so much other junk, like drains and water supply and whatever, it'd be a real bear to figure something out, it wasn't really a real thought, just a thought exercise.    That return water needs even more mixing than a hydraulic separator will give it?   I suppose on its own boiler you just set the top temp really low and avoid the problem entirely.

 

As for adding glycol, I suppose I should get a pump and add some in there, but I really only have one zone that is even slightly iffy and I just make sure it's kicking on a lot during cold nights.   I'm paranoid enough about it that I will actually force that zone on for a bit and make sure it's run all the way through before I turn it off again.   If the boiler fails, I'll drain it, if the power goes, I've got a whole house genset...shrug.   I ran Fostapex when I installed it and I know you can freeze regular pex solid and it will thaw just fine..not sure what happens with Fostapex.

Regular oxygen barrier heat pex aka (crossed linked polyethylene). Will usually freeze and expand a bit, then once it thaws it will regain it's original shape. When Pex is extruded it retains memory forever. If it's originally extruded in roll form even after 100 years of being streched out straight if you allow it to relax it would return to roll shape. If it's extruded in a straight stick same thing, it will always return to its original form and diameter.

 

Now if the pex you used has aluminum in it (as I know Viega FostaPex does), if it freezes it splits just like copper. I've repaired a lot of it over the past few years. Not to say it's a bad product, Viega makes some of the best pex fittings, tubing, and tools in the world. I use it myself, it's very professional high quality material your not going to find in Home Depot or Lowe's plumbing isles. The Germans have their shit together, when it comes to hydronic heating. I even use their pro press fittings for copper, and now Mega Press for black iron gas pipe. Good, good, good, stuff! Wise choice you made, obviously you did your homework before buying garbage.

 

When I run radiant for snow melt I always use a product called Onyx. It's an extremely heavy braded rubber tubing, similar to high pressure hydraulic hose. Super easy to work with, more durable than pex tubing. Saves a ton of labor installing, but costs a little more than pex. My favorite feature is that it's completely silent you hear no noise at all during expansion and contraction, which is usually the biggest complaint customers have about pex.

 

http://www.wattsradiant.com/products/onix/ the stuff is awesome.

 

Your doing the right thing by keeping the heat turned up when it's really cold out. You would be surprised how many people lack that much common sense, during extremely cold temperatures. I guess I count on stupidity to make a living though.

 

 

Sorry for derailing this thread, to the OP.

 

DS, I have heard that the O2 barrier on Onyx has been failing resulting in premature failure of the internal heat exchanger due to oxygen corrosion.  Just a heads up...

Regular oxygen barrier heat pex aka (crossed linked polyethylene). Will usually freeze and expand a bit, then once it thaws it will regain it's original shape. When Pex is extruded it retains memory forever. If it's originally extruded in roll form even after 100 years of being streched out straight if you allow it to relax it would return to roll shape. If it's extruded in a straight stick same thing, it will always return to its original form and diameter.

 

Now if the pex you used has aluminum in it (as I know Viega FostaPex does), if it freezes it splits just like copper. I've repaired a lot of it over the past few years. Not to say it's a bad product, Viega makes some of the best pex fittings, tubing, and tools in the world. I use it myself, it's very professional high quality material your not going to find in Home Depot or Lowe's plumbing isles. The Germans have their shit together, when it comes to hydronic heating. I even use their pro press fittings for copper, and now Mega Press for black iron gas pipe. Good, good, good, stuff! Wise choice you made, obviously you did your homework before buying garbage.

 

When I run radiant for snow melt I always use a product called Onyx. It's an extremely heavy braded rubber tubing, similar to high pressure hydraulic hose. Super easy to work with, more durable than pex tubing. Saves a ton of labor installing, but costs a little more than pex. My favorite feature is that it's completely silent you hear no noise at all during expansion and contraction, which is usually the biggest complaint customers have about pex.

 

http://www.wattsradiant.com/products/onix/ the stuff is awesome.

 

Your doing the right thing by keeping the heat turned up when it's really cold out. You would be surprised how many people lack that much common sense, during extremely cold temperatures. I guess I count on stupidity to make a living though.

 

 

Sorry for derailing this thread, to the OP.

 

Pex is great stuff, and i'm also a fan of Viega, otherwise I wouldn't have bought all the tools.  I didn't know they made a black pipe press tool...that's pretty cool.    I can imagine how much that costs.  I know the pureflow tools are $125+ per size for the manual tool and arm and a leg for the drill type tool.

 

I figured the aluminum in Fostapex or generic Pex-Al-Pex might burst which is what made me question it.  I just never had any experience with freezing that type.  I know from experience how well regular pex tolerates freezing.

 

I did work for heating contractor back in the 90s...so while I'm not up on the latest everything, it's not my first time at the Rodeo.

 

We have derailed the original thread a bit. hehe.   He got his answer though, it's just that we continue to improve upon the answer with an even better solution going forward

DS, I have heard that the O2 barrier on Onyx has been failing resulting in premature failure of the internal heat exchanger due to oxygen corrosion. Just a heads up...

Yes on stainless steel heat exchangers. I have heard of that happening. I mostly sell cast iron boilers since I work out here in oil land. Not much natural gas around here.

Yes on stainless steel heat exchangers. I have heard of that happening. I mostly sell cast iron boilers since I work out here in oil land. Not much natural gas around here.

Ah that explains a few things, including your desire to prevent boiler shock...

If I do install a stainless high efficiency gas boiler I use pex. Most of those wall hung units don't have a very long lifespan anyway. You can get 30 years out of a well made German cast iron boiler. The lifespan of stainless steel is about 12-15 years. But yeah you can bring back colder water to them with confidence they're going to survive. Cast iron dosent like that too much lol.

 

 

Sorry for derailing this thread, to the OP.

 

No worries. I have oil heat issues as well, so I'm glad for any information related to heating as well.

No worries. I have oil heat issues as well, so I'm glad for any information related to heating as well.

Well when you're ready to address those issues, I will gladly help you out. I specialize in oil heating. And I operate my company in the same town as you live.

When I purchased the home I had them replace some of the cracked and loose blocks at the recommendation of the home inspector. I received a call that the blocks used were no longer manufactured. He stated that the color would be a close match (not even close). At this point I just want to make them safe until I can price out replacing them all. I have to address the functional issues (stairs, heat, drafty windows, lack of insulation, drainage, etc) before tackling curb appeal and aesthetics.

 

Thank you for the help. I'll try and get some measurements in the morning on the blocks.

Well when you're ready to address those issues, I will gladly help you out. I specialize in oil heating. And I operate my company in the same town as you live.

I was just discussing that with the Mrs. I just hope you don't tell me I need a new boiler.   I want that beast to run till the bolts rust off.

I was just discussing that with the Mrs. I just hope you don't tell me I need a new boiler. I want that beast to run till the bolts rust off.

I'm not a magician, but I've been known to help people limp a unit along before.

Curious how this turns out.  I need to replace mine as well.  Thinking about going with wood to avoid the same issues in the future.

Probably Grinnell or Cambridge in his neck of the woods.

Well if it's Grinnell, he's SOL, they stopped making block a couple of years ago - they didn't pay Diamond their royalties so Diamond cut them off.

 

Older Cambridge would probably be a Versa Lock product.

 

Could be anything, there are a bunch of companies that are or were making block.

 

OP - if you can get me some pictures I can steer you in the right direction.

They are 16" x 12" x 3.75" I need to replace 12 of them. I'm debating how much time would be required, however I guess I could knock them out in a day. I went to stop at the place today and they closed at 3pm.

Definitely NOT Grinnell, might be Versa Lok. Bad news for you if it is Versa Lok, is that Quikrete bought them out and aren't doing much with the line. I think Wingle in Augusta and Hoffman in Long Valley are still selling the little bit that is still shipping out of that plant. You could also try Valley Mason in Vernon, he bought around 50 trucks of material from them when Quikrete fire sale-ed the line out of the plant - he may still have some floating around.