Today I went to the Police Department to find out why my subsequent pistol permits are taking over 4 months. I previously called and emailed and got no response. After waiting my turn I was told they were being delayed due to the amount of arrests I had while a juvenile.

 

On my initial FID and PTP, less than 2 years ago, one adult arrest record was found, but they could not find the court record because it was expunged. I don't even know how they found the arrest record the first time. I had to go to the town the arrest and court case happened in and and get a copy of the dismissal and in essence prove my innocence once again before I was issued my FID and initial PTP.

 

Today somehow though they found every arrest record both juvenile and adult. However the firearms investigator was also able to see that almost every charge ended in dismissal except for one. The investigator claimed that I was found guilty of an underage under the influence charge which I do not remember or believe to be correct. However he was not able to even tell what town it took place in. My guess is he couldn't tell because he shouldn't have even had the expunged information. I asked why none of these records came up during my initial FID and PTPs and he said he missed it. I find that highly unlikely. The reason it didn't come up the first time is because they were expunged and thus didn't happen. I was told they needed the full records to make a final decision. I asked how he planned on getting them if everything was expunged? To which I was told don't worry I will get it done and most likely I wouldn't be denied.

 

Most likely? Full Record? I have a current FID, I purchased 3 pistols in NJ with permits issued less than 2 years ago, I have passed every NICS and PICS (70+) I have a Florida and Utah Concealed Carry Permit. My last arrest was 18 years ago. According to the investigators own records every charge was dismissed, except the one, which I believe he is wrong. Every arrest and court case was expunged. The reason I had them expunged was so I could answer No to have I ever been arrested on law school applications. Even without the expungements I was able to answer No to have I ever been convicted of a crime.

 

It is my opinion that the reason this is happening is because how outspoken I was regarding the town's firearms policies. When I mentioned on this forum about their little private number postings, the next day the numbers were removed never to be seen again, however the town's site still references the numbers. I just find the whole thing very peculiar. I emailed Evan Nappen tonight and I will be contacting tomorrow the law firm that handled the expungements.

 

My questions tonight if anyone knows the answers are: How can a police department get expunged juvenile records in the first place? And secondly can they use these expunged juvenile records to deny a firearms application when the charges were dismissed in the first place?

 

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Capt14k... It seems like there are other people ...well..at least one here...with a similar problem. I think you'll have to wait and see... But.....

 

Question for those at this a long time. Do you think this is related to some effort to dig deeper, even deeper than they should be permitted to, as some sort of anti gun ownership effort?

I just want a break down of the reasons for all the arrests LOL. It sounds like he has a LOT.

I just want a break down of the reasons for all the arrests LOL. It sounds like he has a LOT.

The arrests as a Juvenile were trespassing in an abandoned house at age 12 which was sent to juvenile conference committee and then dismissed after 6 months. There were assault charges on 4 separate occasions as a Juvenile one of which arresting officer added trumped up charges such as terroristic threats and extortion and conspiracy to commit every charge, all dismissed. The one with the trumped up charges my alleged co-conspirator was 18 and thus an adult. His charges were also dismissed and today he is a Federal Corrections Officer. And one possession of marijuana, under age under the influence that being marijuana as juvenile. Was in car with someone who was smoking joint police pulled up he swallowed joint but cop found another roach. Driver who was the owner of the car and pot wouldn't admit it was his so we both were arrested. I did not smoke pot (never liked it) and immediately went to hospital for drug test that was negative. Again charges dismissed even though firearms investigator claims the under influence underage was not. As adult again assault and again dismissed as self defense.

 

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Capt14k... It seems like there are other people ...well..at least one here...with a similar problem. I think you'll have to wait and see... But.....

 

Question for those at this a long time. Do you think this is related to some effort to dig deeper, even deeper than they should be permitted to, as some sort of anti gun ownership effort?

I'm not sure but I didn't think they could dig into expunged records period. Especially those records that resulted in dismissals.

 

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Kind of makes you wonder what the heck expunged means.

Redacted

I was never convicted either. Expungement means it did not occur, at least it is supposed to. He never should have been able to find the info through a standard search. He didn't find the info less than 2 years ago when I was issued my FID and my Pistol Permits. It is the same town, same investigator, I have had no involvement with law enforcement in the last 18 years. The only thing that has changed is I have bought many Military Rifles, I have been somewhat active on forums, and I belong to CJRPC.

 

Below is definition of expungement in NJ.

 

To expunge a criminal record means to go through a court process. Upon successful completion of that process, you get a court order signed by a judge. The court order states that the offense “...shall be deemed not to have occurred.” Persons doing a background check through New Jersey State Police or through the FBI will receive a response that there is “no record.” Additionally, after you expunge your criminal record, you are legally entitled to state that the arrest or conviction never happened.

 

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While living in NJ I had a PDP expunged at the rate of $1200.00 and it was a waste of time. In NJ it always came up and I just had to explain it away and was always OK.
I put it on my forums here in NC and was told it never came up and was told if it wasn't a felony not to put it on any paperwork again and I have had my CCP issued 3 times with no problem. Looks like NJ must be looking in places they shouldn't be.
Mine was also terrorist threats that was made up by a Judge in Monmouth county with a criminal record. Seems to be the go to charge when there is nothing else.

Good Luck.

I used to followup on the dispositions of convictions to get rid of the physical evidence. Once in awhile I'd come across a name attached to the property where the record was missing. It was pulled and secured in the Chief's Office, or destroyed. I'm not sure which. The Secretary had a record of the name, but not the file. No one is supposed to have access, if it still existed.

 

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I used to followup on the dispositions of convictions to get rid of the physical evidence. Once in awhile I'd come across a name attached to the property where the record was missing. It was pulled and secured in the Chief's Office, or destroyed. I'm not sure which. The Secretary had a record of the name, but not the file. No one is supposed to have access, if it still existed.

 

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I petitioned for a copy of my expungement record to serve to the town. All arrests came as juvenile except one and all juvenile arrests except one took place in the town where I was issued my FID and PTP less than 2 years ago and have filed for new PTP. The one adult arrest was in another town and court and also was dismissed. That is the one that came up on my initial FID and PTP. The one other juvenile arrest which was dismissed was in a third town. All are in the same county. I will take copy of expungement order to all 3 towns again even through it was done almost two decades ago.

 

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1 The expungement order is supposed to be served on multiple agencies and administrative clerks. If it was not served on all who were to receive notification, it sometimes pops up.

2. You have not been denied so your question is presently moot.

1 The expungement order is supposed to be served on multiple agencies and administrative clerks. If it was not served on all who were to receive notification, it sometimes pops up.

2. You have not been denied so your question is presently moot.

No I have not been denied but I am being delayed. My concern also is I was told he was waiting for paperwork of the original case that I do not believe he will be able to obtain being it was juvenile and dismissed and expunged. That could lead to a permanent delay. I am waiting for a call back from the attorney who did the expungement to find out who exactly was served.

 

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The fact that nowadays literally ANY time your name shows up in a police databas "your name was on a high school fight report" as a reason for delays just makes me want to NEVER call the police for anything. Nothing good can come out of it in the future. "Oh I see you had an altercation with kids trespassing on your lawn"

 

So back a month after Newtown I had a case of 223 sent to my house. FedEx said delivered. it wasn't there. So being it was an extremely sensitive time the next day i thought notifying the PD my rifle ammo is missing. Didn't want to be the subject of news story "man doesn't report 1000 rounds of anmo missing"

 

So a cop comes over and I said "I'm just doing the right thing here. Maybe someone stole my stuff." So a day later the ammo arrives from FedEx late. I call the PD that I got the package.

 

I haven't applied for pistols since then but who wants to think I get tripped up on that?

Well I found my original expungement order. The local police department ran their own search of the State Juvenile Record System. Either my lawyer didn't serve them in 1997, it didn't exist in 1997, or someone screwed up in 1997 (year of expungements). Investigator said once they are served order it shouldn't come up again. The State Police investigation and Federal Returned nothing as did the County. Township dug deeper. I gave township copy of expungement order and proof that all charges were dismissed originally as I remembered. They said I should have permits within the week. Sucks to prove your innocence more than once but hopefully it is done now. For the record Township investigator was very helpful today.

 

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Glad to hear it is almost resolved. Let us know when you physically get them in your hand.

Glad to hear it is almost resolved. Let us know when you physically get them in your hand.

Will do.

 

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Redacted

 

The fact that nowadays literally ANY time your name shows up in a police databas "your name was on a high school fight report" as a reason for delays just makes me want to NEVER call the police for anything. Nothing good can come out of it in the future. "Oh I see you had an altercation with kids trespassing on your lawn"

 

So back a month after Newtown I had a case of 223 sent to my house. FedEx said delivered. it wasn't there. So being it was an extremely sensitive time the next day i thought notifying the PD my rifle ammo is missing. Didn't want to be the subject of news story "man doesn't report 1000 rounds of anmo missing"

 

So a cop comes over and I said "I'm just doing the right thing here. Maybe someone stole my stuff." So a day later the ammo arrives from FedEx late. I call the PD that I got the package.

 

I haven't applied for pistols since then but who wants to think I get tripped up on that?

If you call the cops, you get the cops.

 

If you are dumb enough to do that (not calling you personally dumb for real), then don't complain when you get cops all up in your shit.

 

They don't care about your case of ammo, except maybe that they can blame you for something (in Jersey). They aren't going to dust for prints or check neighborhood video cameras. Just put notes on you as you suspected. He could have left a tool behind he used to pry into your shed to get the ammo, and they wouldn't check it for prints. They would say, "Well, you got a new tool." If you had a plate number of the thief or something then it might be worth considering the peril of dealing with cops because there could be a chance they might grab the guy. But even that is a gamble.

And in a similar vein you can't really be too open with a doctor anymore. They are not on your side and anything you say can be reported and used against you. Strange world we live in today.

When it comes down to the nitty gritty they will use whatever they can against you. They data-mine from whatever reports or incidents they can find about you. One of the incidents the detective was grilling me about was when I was attacked in high school, my attacker was charged with assault and sentenced at the court. Solid police work.

 

I am CJ major and I am literally afraid to call the police for help when things go down, because I know that it will be used in some way against me at a later point. Careful notes are taken of every interaction you have with them, and it is always somehow bent against you down the line.

I guess it comes down to the township it self. 2 years ago my father in law attacked me (long story) at the time I was an Animal control officer and was on duty. I was forced to brandish my pepper spray (I would not hit him back due to his kidney failure, cancer, and permanent hernia) this all took place I out in public so my supervisor instructed me to file a police report. I went to the station with a video of the entire incident and filed the report. He was charged and found guilty of assult and filing a false report (he tried to file a police report saying I attacked him, he dident know I have security cameras). Everytime I go to get more permits the officer makes some joke about me almost spraying my father in law.

And in a similar vein you can't really be too open with a doctor anymore. They are not on your side and anything you say can be reported and used against you. Strange world we live in today.

I agree everything is kept track of. Other problems that can occur is data is entered incorrectly or interpreted incorrectly. Not sure which it was in my case, but the township firearms investigator was positive yesterday that I was adjudicated a juvenile deliquent for underage under the influence. Today I showed him the expungement order that clearly stated the case was dismissed against me. He blamed the system having the incorrect info. I'm just glad Mom made me get drug tested that proved I was not under the influence and also that Mom saved every paper good and bad from my entire life. Just hope she doesn't follow through on that scrapbook she talks about to give to my kids lol.

 

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And in a similar vein you can't really be too open with a doctor anymore. They are not on your side and anything you say can be reported and used against you. Strange world we live in today.

True. And the gov't has warrantless access to your medical records.

let me see if i understand clearly:

 

1 arrest - trespassing

5 arrests - assault

1 arrest - drugs

 

= 7 arrests, all dismissed / expunged, and you want to know why your permits are delayed?  the fact that you're not actually in prison now to me is a testimony of our broken criminal justice system and/or access to a good/rich family with top legal counsel.

 

i'm as gun-crazy as anyone on here (guns for everyone!), but your plight is ridiculous and makes law abiding gun owners look bad. even if you apply the "3 strikes and you're out" rule, you're waaay over your quota. how the hell do you get anyone to even sign your reference form? 

And in a similar vein you can't really be too open with a doctor anymore. They are not on your side and anything you say can be reported and used against you. Strange world we live in today.

LOL, "anymore?"

 

Not "anymore," more like 30 years ago. Your information is abused retroactively. When they passed the digital laws, it didn't say "from this day forward." It said all your shit. Back to when you complained about your Daddy washing your pee pee when you were five, or when you were stupid and told the doc that Democrats are really socialists in the 90s.

 

When you give information, it's not yours anymore. If you have a professional relationship and a legal obligation that it won't be disclosed, the government changes that tomorrow, retroactively.

 

Teach your kids to keep their mouths shut. At least as long as we are still allowed to, which probably isn't much longer.

I don't think I've seen a thread with so many paragrahs as this. Holy cow. I lost intrerest three sentences in. War and peace has less words in it. ADHD likely.

let me see if i understand clearly:

 

1 arrest - trespassing

5 arrests - assault

1 arrest - drugs

 

= 7 arrests, all dismissed / expunged, and you want to know why your permits are delayed?  the fact that you're not actually in prison now to me is a testimony of our broken criminal justice system and/or access to a good/rich family with top legal counsel.

 

i'm as gun-crazy as anyone on here (guns for everyone!), but your plight is ridiculous and makes law abiding gun owners look bad. even if you apply the "3 strikes and you're out" rule, you're waaay over your quota. how the hell do you get anyone to even sign your reference form? 

 

Are we not innocent until proven guilty?   An arrest is not equal to a conviction and it should not be grounds for denying someone their fundamental right to self defense.  Should be take his 1st, 4th and 5th amendment rights while we're at it?  Should we just eliminate that whole pesky trial thing and just go straight to execution for arrests?   It works so well in North Korea, maybe we should adopt it here.

Redacted

Are we not innocent until proven guilty?   An arrest is not equal to a conviction and it should not be grounds for denying someone their fundamental right to self defense.  Should be take his 1st, 4th and 5th amendment rights while we're at it?  Should we just eliminate that whole pesky trial thing and just go straight to execution for arrests?   It works so well in North Korea, maybe we should adopt it here.

Good points all around

let me see if i understand clearly:

 

1 arrest - trespassing

5 arrests - assault

1 arrest - drugs

 

= 7 arrests, all dismissed / expunged, and you want to know why your permits are delayed? the fact that you're not actually in prison now to me is a testimony of our broken criminal justice system and/or access to a good/rich family with top legal counsel.

 

i'm as gun-crazy as anyone on here (guns for everyone!), but your plight is ridiculous and makes law abiding gun owners look bad. even if you apply the "3 strikes and you're out" rule, you're waaay over your quota. how the hell do you get anyone to even sign your reference form?

Wow that was an ignorant statement. All charges were dismissed and expunged as in arrest never happened according to State of NJ. Dismissed as in never convicted or found not guilty. All were as Juvenile except one assault charge. All assaults were self defense. This all took place 22-30 years ago. So in your little fantasy world because you are charged with a crime you are guilty? I am glad I still live in America where it is innocent until proven guilty. Not sure what country you are in, but that is how it works here.

 

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