Someone with legal experience should comment here.

 

As far as I know they can't force you to produce a gun you sold. Are we required to keep the paperwork until we die? Report it if it goes missing or burns or is stolen? Produce it on XX minutes notice?

 

I sold a .380 to a dealer two years ago. I'd be hard pressed to prove that I did. You're talking about extreme extreme situations where they'd tear my house apart to prove otherwise. 

 

What do you need to make a private handgun sale in this state?

What I remember reading somewhere in NJ is that if a gun is missing or stolen the law gives you 36 hrs after discovery to report it. IIRC not required on a fed level.The private handgun sale?- buyer needs a P2P, no FFL needed you didnt know that? But I too would like to know about keeping the pprwrk. I'll guess that once again NJ law is stricter than Fed law.

ETA: I did find this-

a.         States That Require Sellers to Retain Sales Records of All Firearms

• Licensed Dealers: Eleven states (California,25 Connecticut,26 Illinois,27 Maine,28 Maryland,29Massachusetts,30 Michigan,31 New Jersey,32 Oregon,33 Pennsylvania34 and Rhode Island35) and the District of Columbia36 require licensed dealers to maintain records of sales of all firearms.  Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, and the District of Columbia do not specify the period of retention.  Retention periods in the other states range from three to twenty years.
• Private Sellers: Seven states (California,37 Colorado,38 Connecticut,39  Delaware,40 Illinois,41 New York42and Rhode Island43 ) and the District of Columbia44 require records to be maintained regarding private sales of all firearms. In Connecticut, Illinois and Rhode Island the private sellers are responsible for maintaining the record for five, ten, and six years respectively. California, Colorado, Delaware, New York and the District of Columbia require licensed dealers who process private transfers of firearms to create records of those transfers and maintain them indefinitely.

b.         States That Require Sellers to Retain Records of Handgun, But Not Long Gun, Sales

• Licensed Dealers:   Eight states (Alabama,45 Colorado,46 Delaware,47 Florida,48 New York,49 North Carolina,50 Vermont51 and Washington52 ) require licensed dealers to maintain records of handgun sales, but not long gun sales.  In Vermont and Washington, the retention period is six years.  In Alabama, records must be retained permanently. The remaining states do not specify the period of retention.
• Private Sellers:  Maryland requires private sellers to maintain handgun sales records for three years.53  In Pennsylvania, all transfers of handguns must be conducted through licensed dealers or law enforcement, thereby ensuring that the recordkeeping requirements on licensed dealers will include records of private sales of these firearms.54 Michigan55 and New Jersey56 also require private sellers of handguns to retain a record of the sale indefinitely.

So it looks like to me we (NJ private sellers) need to keep the HG pprwrk forever which seems redundent as local/state leos have a copy of the permit BUT no retention of long gun sales

What I remember reading somewhere in NJ is that if a gun is missing or stolen the law gives you 36 hrs after discovery to report it. IIRC not required on a fed level.The private handgun sale?- buyer needs a P2P, no FFL needed you didnt know that? But I too would like to know about keeping the pprwrk. I'll guess that once again NJ law is stricter than Fed law.

Exactly. I don't think I could find the paperwork from the .380. Frankly, WTF should I hold onto it?

 

I'm not talking about stolen guns but guns that were sold.

 

"Where's the .380?"

"I sold it."

"To whom?"

"A guy in South Jersey, forget his name."

"Do you have the paperwork?"

"No, I lost it." Or "No, I spilled motor oil on, the print dissolved to illegibility, and I inadvertently threw it away." "No, it was destroyed when I left a window open in my car and it rained." 

 

You can check with an attorney beforehand in the event that one of these things actually occurred, so you have a bullet-proof statement. You don't want to lie to Johnny Law about anything, as that itself is a crime. 

 

Also, would be nice to know possible 5th-Amendment solutions. Yes fellow gun-lovers, you'll be happy to hear that the Bill of Rights is comprised of more than the 2nd Amendment. 

 

It would be nice if we could just find out answers to questions like this one. I've suggested many times hiring a competent attorney specializing in firearm law, you know at a group rate, and asking questions like this instead of shooting diarrhea out of our assholes like we do every time an issue like this arises and we don't have a direct legal citation. 

 

Naaa, this is more fun.

Fine.. I'll just never sell any of my handguns.  Can never have too many anyway.

Move to PA with your guns and not the Spouse.

 

 

So it looks like to me we (NJ private sellers) need to keep the HG pprwrk forever which seems redundent as local/state leos have a copy of the permit BUT no retention of long gun sales

Your information is from an anti-second amendment website. It is not the law.

 

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Your information is from an anti-second amendment website. It is not the law.

 

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Looked official. oops?   So you know what the law isnt- what is the law regarding retention of paperwork?

I would think the onus is on them to prove your guns aren't legal.

 

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You don't want to lie to Johnny Law about anything, as that itself is a crime.

Cite that law. It aint in PA. Obviously lying to feds is a crime (which is a crime against decency in and of itself).

Cite that law. It aint in PA. Obviously lying to feds is a crime (which is a crime against decency in and of itself).

"Hindering Apprehension" if done to hide something illegal.

Cite that law. It aint in PA. Obviously lying to feds is a crime (which is a crime against decency in and of itself).

Thanks for making me look it up. I knew it was a crime to lie to feds (Martha Stewart).

 

Figured if any state had similar laws it would be the corrupt soon-to-be third-world sewer most of us call home. 

 

Here ya go: http://www.johnzarych.com/is-it-a-crime-to-lie-to-a-police-officer-in-new-jersey/

With my FL ID I just claim I sold it to a guy in the Walmart parking lot who looked like he was Florida. I don't even have to see their DL if they tell me they are from FL.

With my FL ID I just claim I sold it to a guy in the Walmart parking lot who looked like he was Florida. I don't even have to see their DL if they tell me they are from FL.

I would not believe anyone who told me he was Florida. Nebraska maybe.

 

I believe if you claim the xfer occurred in NJ though you are probably in trouble. People can't come to NJ from a carry state and buy guns because they look like their from Florida or even Pennsylvania. Also try telling a judge you didn't even check the guy's license. Then offer him some of the weed you were smoking.

 

What you did was sell it when YOU were last in Florida, to a guy who showed you his DL and carry permit. You forget his name.

 

 

"Hey we're from the Pokies and we'd like to buy your guns"

Yes I meant last time I was in FL. However I don't need to see any ID unless I suspect they aren't a Florida resident and carry permits aren't necessary for face to face sales

Thanks for making me look it up. I knew it was a crime to lie to feds (Martha Stewart).

 

Figured if any state had similar laws it would be the corrupt soon-to-be third-world sewer most of us call home. 

 

Here ya go: http://www.johnzarych.com/is-it-a-crime-to-lie-to-a-police-officer-in-new-jersey/

Why am I surprised about Jersey. Only a written statement or lying under oath is illegal in PA. You can lie to cops all you want. But it's generally smarter to say "5th Amendment" and STFU.

Why am I surprised about Jersey. Only a written statement or lying under oath is illegal in PA. You can lie to cops all you want. But it's generally smarter to say "5th Amendment" and STFU.

I've long advocated that position with minor exceptions. However, it's unclear to me what our rights are with regard to extra-legal entities like DYFS. Outside of gun laws that are the be-all and end-all for some, and only in certain states, the U.S. Constitution has essentially ceased to exist. Try telling the powers that be that the $500 or the vehicle they stole from you under civil forfeiture violates the Constitution. The only areas that still work exist for the protection of actual criminals, psychos, perverts, scallawags, mountebanks, and the like. In other words people like me. 

With my FL ID I just claim I sold it to a guy in the Walmart parking lot who looked like he was Florida. I don't even have to see their DL if they tell me they are from FL.

in order for any firearm to cross state lines as it changes owner, it(i believe) must go through an ffl.

in order for any firearm to cross state lines as it changes owner, it(i believe) must go through an ffl.

That's incorrect.  If someone lives in two states, which I do, I can transport it myself and sell it there under the prevailing laws.  If I were to sell a gun in Louisiana I'd have to do it through a FFL but as a FL resident and a NJ resident I can do FTF transaction in either state.

in order for any firearm to cross state lines as it changes owner, it(i believe) must go through an ffl.

True, except thru heretity.

That's incorrect.  If someone lives in two states, which I do, I can transport it myself and sell it there under the prevailing laws.  If I were to sell a gun in Louisiana I'd have to do it through a FFL but as a FL resident and a NJ resident I can do FTF transaction in either state.

See the RED above. You crossed the state line as being the owner in both.

True, except thru heretity.

See the RED above. You crossed the state line as being the owner in both.

Yes, then he is correct.  My example was as you stated--I am the owner as it crosses into the new state.

But I digress, as heretity would be the same owner also.

 

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Someone with legal experience should comment here.

 

As far as I know they can't force you to produce a gun you sold. Are we required to keep the paperwork until we die? Report it if it goes missing or burns or is stolen? Produce it on XX minutes notice?

 

I sold a .380 to a dealer two years ago. I'd be hard pressed to prove that I did. You're talking about extreme extreme situations where they'd tear my house apart to prove otherwise.

Same here. I had five P2Ps over the course of several years back in the 90's. Bought 5 guns, traded in 3 to a dealer along the way. I have no paperwork on the trades except for a handwritten receipt for one. I'd bet my next paycheck that if you went through my file at the local PD, they'd show that I purchased (and may still own) all five. Nothing was computerized back then. Maybe now it's a tighter system.

Would be nice if someone with a legal background could resolve this issue once and for all. It's really important and I suspect there's a lot of misinformation regarding it.

The only place to get a gun question resolved once and for all in Jersey is the NJ supreme court. Lawyers can make informed predictions, some with a high degree of reliability, some more variable. But, like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get. Heck, we even had a couple real doozies in PA where the courts are gun friendly. In Jersey, I would error on the side of caution. Or, discretion.

If they are only interested in your wife you do not talk to them. Let your lawyer talk to them. They will try and drag you in

 

 

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