Pretty impressive moves, It looks like it might be a good  in dogfight..

 

would be interesting to see it go up against an eagle, falcon, hornet, or even a flanker in the phone booth.

Don't forget the phantom in that mix.

The Raptor is a "5th generation" fighter compared to the F-15, F-16 and F-18 being "4th generation" fighters. The F-22 has taken on multiple F-15s at one time and defeated them. It has fly-by-wire controls and thrust vectoring. Easily out-maneuvers the other aircraft.

The Raptor is a "5th generation" fighter compared to the F-15, F-16 and F-18 being "4th generation" fighters. The F-22 has taken on multiple F-15s at one time and defeated them. It has fly-by-wire controls and thrust vectoring. Easily out-maneuvers the other aircraft.

 

5:1 training exercise for Air Force F15s, dispatched by one Raptor.

The Raptor must not be that great of a fighter, got shot down by Obamas pen. Dude loves killing American jobs. 

I think it is clear that the F22 is pretty much the baddest thing in the sky right now but is is also frightfully expansive. They are nearly half billion each which is like 4 times more then the most expensive F-15.  When you need planes in the air over multiple fronts and you need coverage that is a stupid price. The F-35 which was supposed to be the cheap plane is nearly $200mil for the cheap version and nearly as much as a F-22 for navy version.

 

We have a problem with aircraft costs.

We have a problem with aircraft costs.

While there are efficiencies to be gained in government R&D and acquisitions, you have to remember something. Cutting edge and pushing the envelope costs money.

 

Fighters in the teen series (F-15, 16, 18) are cheap because we have been making them for over 20 years.

 

The F22/F35 are expensive because of all the technical advancement (and risk) bakes into the program. The 35 is a VTOL stealth..

 

Evolutionary vs Revolutionary.

 

Your point about pursuing such forward leaning and expensive programs and being able to field them in enough numbers to be effective is spot on.

 

 

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I get that top of the line is expensive. I do however think the current approach is broken as hell because we can't afford enough new planes while the old ones are falling apart. The F22 is expensive per airframe because we didn't eat up the dev costs, if they made 500 of them instead of the 120  or so then the cost would be lower. It would in fact be lower then the F35 which is I guess the real problem, the F35 has been a complete disaster. You can't make a plane do everything well and you can't make it do even a few things well without being stupid expensive. I think we would be much better served by a more diverse model lineup of more purpose specific airframes then trying to make a single one do everything, delay it 100 times and have its cost balloon to absurd numbers.

Ya but, can it fly backwards?

I get that top of the line is expensive. I do however think the current approach is broken as hell because we can't afford enough new planes while the old ones are falling apart. The F22 is expensive per airframe because we didn't eat up the dev costs, if they made 500 of them instead of the 120  or so then the cost would be lower. It would in fact be lower then the F35 which is I guess the real problem, the F35 has been a complete disaster. You can't make a plane do everything well and you can't make it do even a few things well without being stupid expensive. I think we would be much better served by a more diverse model lineup of more purpose specific airframes then trying to make a single one do everything, delay it 100 times and have its cost balloon to absurd numbers.

Agreed Vlad. I think the idea with the JSF (F35), was to save money by designing an aircraft to use by all services the way the F4 Phantom was. The Phantom was successful across all services, but with the F35, I agree that they're trying to do too much with one airframe with very new and advanced technologies that haven't been completely refined.

 

Sometimes the technology can't keep up with the visions of the developers. Same thing happened with Sikorsky's RAH-66 Comanche. They just couldn't get it to do what they wanted it to do and the costs got out of control.

 

At least with the Raptor they do have a very successful aircraft, unfortunately at a very high price.

Any jet with thrust vectoring is just down right awesome.

 

Unfortunately the Russians make some planes that have just as good capabilities.

 

With radar and missle technology outpacing stealth, the days of true dogfights are pretty much over. For these planes to perform these aerobatics they can't be going all that fast, pilots would pass out from the g's

Watching the F-22 in person is a must.  It can be surreal watching it.

 

I always try to catch the Joint Base Andrews Air Show when I can.  Free to the public (you can go to a DoD only day as well if you have a DoD ID/CAC card).  Bring a lawn chair and some money for beer.

 

The Raptor is always the highlight of the show.  Combine that with a visit to NRA Museum, Marine Museum, Udvar Hazy Air Space Annex, it's a good gun guy weekend in DC.

 

http://www.jba.af.mil/About-Us/Air-Show

The problem with the Comanche was that it's role was surpassed by drones, which could do the scout role better and cheaper. Nobody could know that was coming back when the Comanche was designed

 

 

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The problem with the Comanche was that it's role was surpassed by drones, which could do the scout role better and cheaper. Nobody could know that was coming back when the Comanche was designed

 

 

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Comanche still impressive for rotory . Something like 80 knots sideways?

Comanche still impressive for rotory . Something like 80 knots sideways?

Comanche was badass. Just in a way that didn't justify the cost.

 

Still, I'd be willing to bed that some of the research was used for other things: F22, RQ-170, F35.

 

 

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The Raptor must not be that great of a fighter, got shot down by Obamas pen. Dude loves killing American jobs.

 

'The pen that has destroyed America, vilified our police, gave birth to ISIS, and sent race relations back to the years of Edgar Meavers? That one? Yeah, it's potent for sure and look where it's gotten us. Higher taxes, more welfare, a failed signature healthcare reform and the American public is so fuckin' stupid they aprove of him 57%. We're doomed.

 

Rant over.

As awesome as the F-22 is, its predecessor, the F-15, has never been defeated in air to air combat. It has over 100 victories and no losses in 40 years of service. That's pretty damn impressive!

As awesome as the F-22 is, its predecessor, the F-15, has never been defeated in air to air combat. It has over 100 victories and no losses in 40 years of service. That's pretty damn impressive!

True, but with the Russians fielding 5th generation fighters, we need to keep up.

Future of air combat is unmanned and drone.  F-22/F-35 are probably last generation of manned aircraft we'll see.  Lots of programs currently in progress to retrofit F-16/F-15 to unmanned platforms.

 

It will be interesting to see what air combat looks like in 2020-2025.  We'll be watching Top Gun then and thinking what were we thinking.

True, but with the Russians fielding 5th generation fighters, we need to keep up.

 

I totally agree. It just goes to show how dominant our aircraft and pilots are!

I totally agree. It just goes to show how dominant our aircraft and pilots are!

Problem is, within 10-15 years, the F-35 will be no match for an "air superiority" drone that is 3x more capable and 1/10 the price.

As awesome as the F-22 is, its predecessor, the F-15, has never been defeated in air to air combat. It has over 100 victories and no losses in 40 years of service. That's pretty damn impressive!

 

As much as both aircraft are incredibly impressive, its the drivers that impress me more and are key to that 100+ to Zero record.  Both are required to get that done.

 

And that F-22 demo pilot looks like he was taking some significant positive G's.  I haven't followed military aircraft lately, but it wouldn't surprise if there were some advances in G-suits along with the maneuverability advancements.

 

Also, to slow down that much so quickly, it had better be able to get up to speed really fast as well.  Seems like it does well in that area.

 

Drones are impressive, but I'd have to ask how easily comms could be interrupted if up against a enemy sufficiently cable of doing that?    China, Russia...... I'm sure that particular issue has been considered with regards to drone operations, but it can't be impossible to interfere with their control.   If they have a static destination I suppose they could deliver their ordnance, but if they replace manned fighters, autonomous capabilities have to decades away.  So I think we'll have manned fighters for quite some time.  Just my uninformed opinion.

 

Besides.... there has to be a Top Gun III... and it would suck if the protagonist is a CPU.

I am as much an engine humping fanboi of the F-22 as the next guy, but that 5:1 "win" over F-15's wasn't in a visual range dogfight scenario; launching missiles from beyond visual range is almost child's play now for most modern aircraft. F-22 can move like no other, I won't disagree, but unless it's armed enough to do this...

 

 

5:1 in hairball isn't going to be a good outcome for any aircraft.

Any jet with thrust vectoring is just down right awesome.

 

Unfortunately the Russians make some planes that have just as good capabilities.

 

With radar and missle technology outpacing stealth, the days of true dogfights are pretty much over. For these planes to perform these aerobatics they can't be going all that fast, pilots would pass out from the g's

 

Exactly.  Never let your advisory get close enough to be in a dog fight in the first place. 

The Raptor is a "5th generation" fighter compared to the F-15, F-16 and F-18 being "4th generation" fighters. The F-22 has taken on multiple F-15s at one time and defeated them. It has fly-by-wire controls and thrust vectoring. Easily out-maneuvers the other aircraft.

 

it defeated them with stealth. if i recall reading about that correctly, not a single eagle pilot ever saw it. i'm talking in a down n dirty turn fight. lets see how it holds its own in a knife fight.

can a f22 land on one wing? or a drone? can it?

3 very low F-18's just flew over my house in formation twice 3times.... Giants game?

Giants game.

As much as both aircraft are incredibly impressive, its the drivers that impress me more and are key to that 100+ to Zero record. Both are required to get that done.

 

And that F-22 demo pilot looks like he was taking some significant positive G's. I haven't followed military aircraft lately, but it wouldn't surprise if there were some advances in G-suits along with the maneuverability advancements.

 

Also, to slow down that much so quickly, it had better be able to get up to speed really fast as well. Seems like it does well in that area.

 

Drones are impressive, but I'd have to ask how easily comms could be interrupted if up against a enemy sufficiently cable of doing that? China, Russia...... I'm sure that particular issue has been considered with regards to drone operations, but it can't be impossible to interfere with their control. If they have a static destination I suppose they could deliver their ordnance, but if they replace manned fighters, autonomous capabilities have to decades away. So I think we'll have manned fighters for quite some time. Just my uninformed opinion.

 

Besides.... there has to be a Top Gun III... and it would suck if the protagonist is a CPU.

Read predator 1 by Johnathan Mayberry. It's a worst case scenario drone hijack story. I highly recommend any of the Joe ledger series

 

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