Hi guys, sorry if this is not the right place to post this, this is my first post.

I applied for an FID and 3 handgun permits in Monmouth County on November 12. There is a question on there which asks “have you ever been adjudged a juvenile delinquent?” , to which I answered no.

When I was 17, I was arrested for having a small amount of marijuana on me, and I was told to complete a 4 week drug program which I completed and they told me it would be completely wiped from my record since it happened when I was a minor. (I'm now 21)

Then I read this story of someone in a very similar situation http://yournjattorneys.com/lie-on-your-nj-firearms-id-card-application-get-arrested/

Seems like he made the same honest mistake and paid the price. I'm now worried that I will get in trouble for "lying" on a federal form. It was an honest mistake - I truly didn't think that arrest mattered or would be considered in this situation since they told me it would be completely expunged. It seems like that's what they told the guy in the story, though. What do you guys think?

 

EDIT: just to add some info, IIRC i went to juvenile court where they recommended I do a 4 week drug program i order to avoid going in front of a judge or something, so I did the program and I believe I received conditional discharge? I remember hearing that term but I'm not entirely sure if that's what I received or not. My new question is, should I go to the police department and try to explain my situation? I live in a small town, the police station is never busy and I've gone back a few times to fix an issue with my referrals. My mom is also going back again tomorrow to see about another issue with her referrals (she applied at the same time I did), so I could go with her and bring up my problem.

IANAL but I would think unless you had it expunged it was not (others will chime in with more info).

You should purchase your criminal background check report from Nj to verify what is on the report.. You can use the following link: http://www.njsp.org/criminal-history-records/#instruct

Not sure how you were charged. Was it as a minor or an adult. I had something expunged and it took sending copies to 5 different agencies. Any of the agencies could have denied and I would not have had the conviction expunged. I believe it is up to you to make sure of this. In my case, I was able to go to the county courthouse and look into a book they had and see that the conviction was completely blacked out. That was in 1992 so I don't remember exactly what I had to do to find the book (case # maybe?).

For my record to be expunged, I had to wait until probation was over (5 years) then apply 10 years after that. Today, what I pleaded guilty to would have not the same consequence, and would be a small fine and maybe probation. 

Just tell the truth  when asked by the Detective.  If he charges were dismissed but you didnt expunge it it will still come up every time.  Happened to me and they let it go.  Never get in any type of trouble again.  Spend the 700 bucks and get it expunged.  Then you can legally answer NO to anyone who asks about it.

Why $700? I did all the paperwork myself, the only cost was that I sent all the letters out Certified mail. This was in 1992.

I guess the question I would have is: Does an arrest for having a small amount of marijuana qualify  someone as "being adjudged a juvenile delinquent'?

I don't know the answer. But I don't see the direct connection between the two.

18 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

I guess the question I would have is: Does an arrest for having a small amount of marijuana qualify  someone as "being adjudged a juvenile delinquent'?

I don't know the answer. But I don't see the direct connection between the two.

In my experience it does not.  

I guess the question I would have is: Does an arrest for having a small amount of marijuana qualify  someone as "being adjudged a juvenile delinquent'?
I don't know the answer. But I don't see the direct connection between the two.

Depends on if one was convicted. Adjudicated a juvenile delinquent is a fancy way of saying convicted. Possession of marijuana conviction would qualify. It sounds like OP received juvenile council, same as adult PTI. If he didn't get in trouble again it technically was not a conviction so he could truthfully answer No to the question, however it is much better to have everything expunged.

Anyone that did an expoungement years ago needs to update the NJSP Juvenile Arrest Database. I was never convicted or adjudicated a juvenile delinquent, but I was falsely charged multiple times. Just last year this came up after numerous permits being issued without a problem. I just had to serve them with expoungement order and the arrests haven't come up again. Unfortunately for me at the time they had the arrest records, but not the court records so it delayed my permits. Luckily my mother saved a box and I was able to prove they were all false accusations that resulted in charges being dismissed or a verdict of not guilty.


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18 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

Depends on if one was convicted. Adjudicated a juvenile delinquent is a fancy way of saying convicted. Possession of marijuana conviction would qualify. It sounds like OP received juvenile council, same as adult PTI. If he didn't get in trouble again it technically was not a conviction so he could truthfully answer No to the question, however it is much better to have everything expunged.

Anyone that did an expoungement years ago needs to update the NJSP Juvenile Arrest Database. I was never convicted or adjudicated a juvenile delinquent, but I was falsely charged multiple times. Just last year this came up after numerous permits being issued without a problem. I just had to serve them with expoungement order and the arrests haven't come up again. Unfortunately for me at the time they had the arrest records, but not the court records so it delayed my permits. Luckily my mother saved a box and I was able to prove they were all false accusations that resulted in charges being dismissed or a verdict of not guilty.


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That sounds weird to me. If you weren’t convicted of anything, why would that hold up anything? All they should care about is convictions... you shouldn’t have to prove a court dismissed a case against you, they need to show a conviction by a court against you... 

As always NJ is backwards to the way things are supposed to be done. 

-Jim

That sounds weird to me. If you weren’t convicted of anything, why would that hold up anything? All they should care about is convictions... you shouldn’t have to prove a court dismissed a case against you, they need to show a conviction by a court against you... 
As always NJ is backwards to the way things are supposed to be done. 
-Jim

You would think so, but like you said this is NJ.

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Even if you werent convicted,  such as a dismissal,  the cops will still want you to explain the arrest.  That is why you need to get it expunged so the arrest doesnt come up anymore.

When I applied for my Out of State Utah CCW, they asked if you had any convictions, even if expunged.

When I applied for my Out of State Utah CCW, they asked if you had any convictions, even if expunged.

Convictions yes but not arrests. However under NJ law you can answer no even if you did because an expoungement means it didn't happen. I never had a conviction or even PTI. Since mine were all false arrests and accusations I was able to answer no regardless.

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Thanks for all the replies guys.

So I guess I really should have just answered "yes" to that question. My new question is this - my buddy who has his FID already (and is younger than me with less experience with firearms, also lives in NJ) told me that I should really go into the police department and try to speak with the detective sargent (who i spoke to already a few times about my referrals and stuff) and just explain the situation, that I've been doing research and I think I accidentally answered a question the wrong way due to a misunderstanding. That friend had to answer yes to that question because he was in the same situation as me (received a weed charge at 17 that he thought was off his record)

I live in a very small town and the police station is never busy so I don't see why it could hurt, but maybe it's a dumb idea. what do you guys think? I would have to explain my situation to an assistant at the front desk before I could see the detective, though.

 

edit: also just to add some info, IIRC i went to juvenile court, they recommended I do 4 week drug program to avoid going to a judge, and i THINK i received conditional discharge? I remember hearing that term, but I don't know. The best way for me to find out would be getting my own criminal report but it's a little late for that I presume.

10 minutes ago, capt14k said:

Convictions yes but not arrests. However under NJ law you can answer no even if you did because an expoungement means it didn't happen. I never had a conviction or even PTI. Since mine were all false arrests and accusations I was able to answer no regardless.

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New Jersey yes your right. But with Utah, they want to know, and it is on their form in writing. 

8 hours ago, Frankie Raffaele said:

Thanks for all the replies guys.

So I guess I really should have just answered "yes" to that question. My new question is this - my buddy who has his FID already (and is younger than me with less experience with firearms, also lives in NJ) told me that I should really go into the police department and try to speak with the detective sargent (who i spoke to already a few times about my referrals and stuff) and just explain the situation, that I've been doing research and I think I accidentally answered a question the wrong way due to a misunderstanding. That friend had to answer yes to that question because he was in the same situation as me (received a weed charge at 17 that he thought was off his record)

I live in a very small town and the police station is never busy so I don't see why it could hurt, but maybe it's a dumb idea. what do you guys think? I would have to explain my situation to an assistant at the front desk before I could see the detective, though.

 

edit: also just to add some info, IIRC i went to juvenile court, they recommended I do 4 week drug program to avoid going to a judge, and i THINK i received conditional discharge? I remember hearing that term, but I don't know. The best way for me to find out would be getting my own criminal report but it's a little late for that I presume.

as I understand it,  under 50 grams and you have a good chance of getting approved...BUT.  Man up and go down and tell the Firearms detective your story.  DONT LIE.  They will catch you.   And that would mean the end of getting firearms in NJ.   Just call and ask to speak with the detective and mention you may have answered the question incorrectly.  He will tell you what to do.  I believe with a conditional discharge you will be fine.  Get it expunged right away though if you are planning on getting more firearms. 

New Jersey yes your right. But with Utah, they want to know, and it is on their form in writing. 

 

If it didn't exist in NJ then how can it exist in Utah? If being truthful it should be answered. If following the letter of the law I don't believe it needs to be since a NJ expoungement means it never happened, unless of course unsealed by a judge.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

If it didn't exist in NJ then how can it exist in Utah? If being truthful it should be answered. If following the latter of the law I don't believe it needs to be since a NJ expoungement means it never happened, unless of course unsealed by a judge.


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Please go to the link and read the application. A section around the middle of the form in Blue highlight will show you the part about expunged records.

https://bci.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/12/CFP-app-12052017.pdf

 

Please go to the link and read the application. A section around the middle of the form in Blue highlight will show you the part about expunged records.

https://bci.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/12/CFP-app-12052017.pdf

 

I know it is there, but do you know what the definition of expungement is in Utah? I know expungement in CA does not mean it never happened. There has been NJ Case Law that says even if applicant is asked about expunged records they can truthfully answer no because once expunged it never happened.

 

Edit: Changed my mind looked it up

 

 

I believe CCW is a Licensure Application

 

 

https://bci.utah.gov/expungements/expungements-faq/

 

 

Once the Expungement is

complete, do I need to acknowledge the arrest/charge on an employment or licensure application?

 

Once the judge has issued the order and you have delivered all of the copies to the required agencies you may respond to any question pertaining to the expunged record “as if it never happened”. This is according to Utah state law.

 

 

 

 

I don't know, are licenses and permits considered the same? Could be. While NJ has done away with any paperwork, I still had to notify the NJ State Police, FBI, and the local county court and local PD and the PD where the offense took place. I'm willing to bet the FBI still has it recorded. I didn't want to take that chance with Utah so I gave them the information and it wasn't a problem. I talked to them on the phone after they received my application and said my explanation was well documented and not a problem.

juvenile Delinquent= If you committed the same crime as an adult; would the punishment result in actual jail time? you should follow NJGF's advice by pulling your own record through NJSP. I am unaware of what they will release in that record, but most agencies will only release juvenile records to another law enforcement agency. It's important for you to find out exactly what Title 9 offense you were charged with. Try going down to the actual courthouse you went to and request a copy of the records. I would not walk back into the issuing agency and tell them you made an error until you personally find out exactly what the charges were. Since you were young when this occurred; you may not remember but the charges could have been downgraded without you even knowing. Your parents may have been the ones wheeling and dealing for you with the prosecutor. Was your possession less than 50 Grams? Where you in a school zone? all of that stuff is important. Good Luck!

I don't know, are licenses and permits considered the same? Could be. While NJ has done away with any paperwork, I still had to notify the NJ State Police, FBI, and the local county court and local PD and the PD where the offense took place. I'm willing to bet the FBI still has it recorded. I didn't want to take that chance with Utah so I gave them the information and it wasn't a problem. I talked to them on the phone after they received my application and said my explanation was well documented and not a problem.

I'm guessing one would have to dig into the Utah Statutes on CCW and Expungement to know for sure. Personally I have always felt if a state allows expungement and someone spends the time and money to have to done then it should be like it never happened as stated in the statutes. I have never had a conviction so I could always answer that as No. Arrests I also answered as No once expungement was done. I had records expunged when I applied to law schools. I only recall one school asking specifically about expunged arrests and to that I also answered No.

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Just now, capt14k said:

I'm guessing one would have to dig into the Utah Statutes on CCW and Expungement to know for sure. Personally I have always felt if a state allows expungement and someone spends the time and money to have to done then it should be like it never happened as stated in the statutes. I have never had a conviction so I could always answer that as No. Arrests I also answered as No once expungement was done. I had records expunged when I applied to law schools. I only recall one school asking specifically about expunged arrests and to that I also answered No.

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I agree with you.

I went to the site you posted and read it. It confuses me more seeing the site saying "it never happened" yet the application for the permit said they will look at expunged. It looks like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

I agree with you.
I went to the site you posted and read it. It confuses me more seeing the site saying "it never happened" yet the application for the permit said they will look at expunged. It looks like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

It wouldn't surprise me. Seems most State Bureaucracies one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

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Now I'm second guessing that I gave the information even though I received the permit. I thought it over for a few days before I filled out the application and sent the information. It was 42 years ago.

9 minutes ago, TheMan said:

juvenile Delinquent= If you committed the same crime as an adult; would the punishment result in actual jail time? you should follow NJGF's advice by pulling your own record through NJSP. I am unaware of what they will release in that record, but most agencies will only release juvenile records to another law enforcement agency. It's important for you to find out exactly what Title 9 offense you were charged with. Try going down to the actual courthouse you went to and request a copy of the records. I would not walk back into the issuing agency and tell them you made an error until you personally find out exactly what the charges were. Since you were young when this occurred; you may not remember but the charges could have been downgraded without you even knowing. Your parents may have been the ones wheeling and dealing for you with the prosecutor. Was your possession less than 50 Grams? Where you in a school zone? all of that stuff is important. Good Luck!

Not to dispute your way of thinking or anything but you (applicant)forgetting about it because you were young does not get it done.  You are going to be seeing this detective again and when you do he is going to TELL you what the arrest and charges were.  He said he had a conditional discharge so that most times means charges dismissed after completing court ordered penalty.  I would DEFINATELY go talk to the detective before he embarrasses you with "why didn't you say you were arrested".  Your integrity is at stake.

Back in the early 90's, I worked refueling nuclear power plants. We had to get FBI background checks. One day during safety training one of the new guys was pulled out of class. We didn't see him again for a week. When the fellow was 19 he went to Staten Island to drink with a group of friends. The group got into a fight in a bar and were all taken to a NYC PD station. They were ROR and told they would have to appear in court. The fellow said he never received a notice and until the FBI background check found it, he hadn't thought about it. At that point he was around 55 years old. He was allowed back on the job, but the point was the FBI said he lied on his application. They don't hold some crimes against you but they expect you to tell the truth. In his case I'm thinking it was truly an honest mistake being so long ago.

8 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Not to dispute your way of thinking or anything but you (applicant)forgetting about it because you were young does not get it done.  You are going to be seeing this detective again and when you do he is going to TELL you what the arrest and charges were.  He said he had a conditional discharge so that most times means charges dismissed after completing court ordered penalty.  I would DEFINATELY go talk to the detective before he embarrasses you with "why didn't you say you were arrested".  Your integrity is at stake.

Im not telling him to claim that he forgot due to age. Im telling him thats its possible he doesn't remember if he indeed was charged with possession. As a juvenile a lot of charges get downgraded. Just don't want him to go in and tell the detective something that may actually affect him when it dosen't have to. He may be able to get his record and take the copies down to the station when he goes to see the detective which could help him out. My father went to Neptune PD to correct an error he made with the dates on his addresses and he is currently held up in the process as the detectives are pretty much accusing him of purposely providing wrong dates. Its BS. Better to have the proof to present with you at the time which Frankie can do. I know it sounds like a lot but as a cop I can tell you lots of us have different ways of interpreting things. I look at it as hey he answered a question wrong but someone else will be wondering what else is he hiding?  just saying.

2 hours ago, TheMan said:

Im not telling him to claim that he forgot due to age. Im telling him thats its possible he doesn't remember if he indeed was charged with possession. As a juvenile a lot of charges get downgraded. Just don't want him to go in and tell the detective something that may actually affect him when it dosen't have to. He may be able to get his record and take the copies down to the station when he goes to see the detective which could help him out. My father went to Neptune PD to correct an error he made with the dates on his addresses and he is currently held up in the process as the detectives are pretty much accusing him of purposely providing wrong dates. Its BS. Better to have the proof to present with you at the time which Frankie can do. I know it sounds like a lot but as a cop I can tell you lots of us have different ways of interpreting things. I look at it as hey he answered a question wrong but someone else will be wondering what else is he hiding?  just saying.

This is the best advice, get your record first and then go from there.

Hey guys, here's an update.

I went to my local police department this morning and asked to speak to the detective. He immediately asked me if I received his call this morning, which I didn't for some strange reason, but he said that he was calling because he wanted to ask me a few questions about my application.

I told him that I came in to bring something to his attention on my application, and when I read the question that I was concerned about, he said that was one of the reasons he tried to call me this morning. He said that legally I answered the question correctly - i was NOT adjudged a juvenile delinquent, but the case did come up and he wanted me to explain what happened. I told him the story and he accepted it. The second issue was regarding a psychiatrist that I was seeing for some years - the detective called that doctor to ask about the reasons I was seeing him, and when meeting with me today he wanted to make sure my story matched up, which it did. I also had to get a note from that Dr at the time of handing in my application saying that I am mentally capable of owning firearms (which I did)

After all was said and done, he mentioned that he was glad I came in to try and clear up this issue before the issue got to me, and he thought it was a good thing to do, so it all went well. He said he's going to send my papers over to the chief and get back to me soon.

I'm assuming at this point I should be in the clear? Background checks done and all?