Anyone familiar with geothermal?  I’m trying to get an idea of the price I should be estimating. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nj.com/articles/11981486/readington_township_couple_del.amp&ved=2ahUKEwiyvffK2b7ZAhVD2FMKHVT0CxEQFjAFegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2awlX8CzkB6LrIq0OEaM2A&ampcf=1

Might get some useful information there.

 

43 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nj.com/articles/11981486/readington_township_couple_del.amp&ved=2ahUKEwiyvffK2b7ZAhVD2FMKHVT0CxEQFjAFegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw2awlX8CzkB6LrIq0OEaM2A&ampcf=1

Might get some useful information there.

 

The one in West Amwell I worked on that house. Early 2000’s.

That was 2 Wells. The property joined by extended family properties, and the plan was for all the dwellings to get tied in.

 

Ive heard mixed opinions on ROI and efficiency in this area.

To put it in perspective I’ve been quoted about 80k for 3700sq ft house built in 2000. I can’t figure out any return on investment based on those numbers even though I’m on propane which is thousands a year.  I’ll probably end up with a air to air heat pump and propane supplemental unit for half the price.  

10 minutes ago, n4p226r said:

To put it in perspective I’ve been quoted about 80k for 3700sq ft house built in 2000. I can’t figure out any return on investment based on those numbers even though I’m on propane which is thousands a year.  I’ll probably end up with a air to air heat pump and propane supplemental unit for half the price.  

Have you considered grid tie solar, and and no propane back up?

 

I have two issues with solar, added cost upfront and I refuse to install until they have something that looks better.  Unfortunately my house faces southpaw so it would be mostly the front of the house with the panels.  

I have to say, the panels don't look that bad if you cover a whole section of roof. 

I have no idea of availability, but you look at the Tesla roofs?

Might be worth it for someone looking  to actually replace a roof. 

45 minutes ago, n4p226r said:

I have two issues with solar, added cost upfront and I refuse to install until they have something that looks better.  Unfortunately my house faces southpaw so it would be mostly the front of the house with the panels.  

Ground mount in the back?

how old is furnace? 

The newest air to air mini splits are actually on par with ground sourced units on BTU per kWh down to about 15 degrees outdoor temp. I put a new one in last summer and even when it was 10 below this last winter it had no issues. The downside is that for that efficiency you’ll need one head unit per condenser. The multi head units aren’t capable of that kind of efficiency yet.

 

2 hours ago, Zeke said:

Ground mount in the back?

how old is furnace? 

17 years old.  ive replaced a few parts since i bought the house 2 years ago.  its one furnace in basement and one in the attic.  

 

they really need to get the cost down on those tesla solar tiles down

24 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

The newest air to air mini splits are actually on par with ground sourced units on BTU per kWh down to about 15 degrees outdoor temp. I put a new one in last summer and even when it was 10 below this last winter it had no issues. The downside is that for that efficiency you’ll need one head unit per condenser. The multi head units aren’t capable of that kind of efficiency yet.

 

i also got a quote for a mitsubishi air source handler.   but even that seemed a little high for 2 units at just under 40k installed.   that included some duct work (sealing the downstairs duct and wrapping it and installing a new main duct in the attic)

1 hour ago, n4p226r said:

17 years old.  ive replaced a few parts since i bought the house 2 years ago.  its one furnace in basement and one in the attic.  

 

they really need to get the cost down on those tesla solar tiles down

i also got a quote for a mitsubishi air source handler.   but even that seemed a little high for 2 units at just under 40k installed.   that included some duct work (sealing the downstairs duct and wrapping it and installing a new main duct in the attic)

I’d look into a new unit. 17 pretty old and dated; before going cray cray

Well that’s what I’m looking to do.  I just want to check to see if the prices I’m getting are accurate in order to get the right system.  $8k a year to heat the house isn’t going to work long term 

2 minutes ago, n4p226r said:

Well that’s what I’m looking to do.  I just want to check to see if the prices I’m getting are accurate in order to get the right system.  $8k a year to heat the house isn’t going to work long term 

How olds the house? Can you insulate the attic double? How drafty are doors and windows?

2000.   i can double the attic insulation.  first i have to replace the high hats with sealed units that can be insulated above.  i think thats my biggest heat loss now in 3 rooms.  doors and windows are not very drafty at all.   

52 minutes ago, n4p226r said:

2000.   i can double the attic insulation.  first i have to replace the high hats with sealed units that can be insulated above.  i think thats my biggest heat loss now in 3 rooms.  doors and windows are not very drafty at all.   

Start there. I’d get a quote for a (2?) furnace. And call an insulator, for what you can buy it for, you could have it installed for % more, and that’s a suck job.

$80k for geo, I can’t see that ever paying for itself 

10 hours ago, Darrenf said:

The downside is that for that efficiency you’ll need one head unit per condenser. The multi head units aren’t capable of that kind of efficiency yet.

 

This may be the case for some of the lower end companies, but I don't think it's true of Fujitsu and Mitsubishi.

Depending on the size and layout of the house, and on the heat loss you can decide if ductless mini splits make sense. They are very efficient, and will heat and cool your house perfectly no matter what the outside temp is, but you may need a lot of heads. (BTW there are ductless mini splits that can be connected to your existing ductwork to properly heat and cool your entire house, but they are prohibitively expensive.)

I take it that you don't have access to natural gas ? When possible especially with your already having ductwork throughout the house (hopefully properly sized) a high efficiency gas furnace is the most economical way to go.

This may be the case for some of the lower end companies, but I don't think it's true of Fujitsu and Mitsubishi.

 

 

Mine is Fujitsu’s highest efficiency unit. If I went to the same size head but with a multi head unit I would lose about 15% of its peak efficiency. That now puts it below the efficiency of a ground sourced unit so my statement is in fact true across all currently available manufacturers. Since I got my Fujitsu, Mitsubishi has a new single head unit that is about 1% more efficient than mine but their multi head units are less efficient than the current Fujitsu multi head units.

 

And no, I do not have Natural gas on my street. We petitioned for it for years and with them constantly moving the goal posts each time we met their requirements we gave up. I have an oil furnace as backup but this spring I am going to add another mini split and I doubt my furnace ever fires again.

Interesting. I'll have to see if I can find that information in the catalog. How many heads did you need to put in house ?

1 hour ago, Darrenf said:

 

Mine is Fujitsu’s highest efficiency unit. If I went to the same size head but with a multi head unit I would lose about 15% of its peak efficiency. That now puts it below the efficiency of a ground sourced unit so my statement is in fact true across all currently available manufacturers. Since I got my Fujitsu, Mitsubishi has a new single head unit that is about 1% more efficient than mine but their multi head units are less efficient than the current Fujitsu multi head units.

 

And no, I do not have Natural gas on my street. We petitioned for it for years and with them constantly moving the goal posts each time we met their requirements we gave up. I have an oil furnace as backup but this spring I am going to add another mini split and I doubt my furnace ever fires again.

How much is your electric for this winter?

To answer a few questions, the house currently has ductwork so it was recommended to go with a ducted air handler in the basement and the same in the attic with the exception of a second head for one room on the 2nd floor getting a wall unit fed from the same outdoor equipment.  All Mitsubishi.  No natural gas.  Oil propane and electric only

12 hours ago, Zeke said:

Start there. I’d get a quote for a (2?) furnace. And call an insulator, for what you can buy it for, you could have it installed for % more, and that’s a suck job.

$80k for geo, I can’t see that ever paying for itself 

The double insulation and high hat replacement was on the list already.  The furnace I’m just trying to get the right system.  

How much is your electric for this winter?

My electric bill didn’t change in any noticeable way. The furnace also uses electric for the blower. What did change dramatically was my oil bill, even over last winter which was very mild I used a fraction of the oil. Since for an experiment I only put one head in on the second floor I had two fans circulating the heat from upstairs to downstairs. They added to my electric use but not in any way I could definitely quantify just by looking at my bill. My electric bill scares a lot of people but I have a LOT of automation going on here along with several computers that draw a lot. Also my wife’s electric car adds about $40 a month.

17 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

My electric bill didn’t change in any noticeable way. The furnace also uses electric for the blower. What did change dramatically was my oil bill, even over last winter which was very mild I used a fraction of the oil. Since for an experiment I only put one head in on the second floor I had two fans circulating the heat from upstairs to downstairs. They added to my electric use but not in any way I could definitely quantify just by looking at my bill. My electric bill scares a lot of people but I have a LOT of automation going on here along with several computers that draw a lot. Also my wife’s electric car adds about $40 a month.

Interesting.  That efficient?Have you thought about grid tie solar? And what mini split are you using?

Just to throw this out there.

Have  you considered hydronic heat? You could use hydronic coils for the blowers, an indirect tank for your potable hot water, and have the option of adding radiant and or radiant panels, baseboard, towel warmers etc.

The units claim 95% efficiency, but that is with low temp returns (radiant mostly). Regardless, the units modulate based on outdoor temperature which save huge on propane/natural gas.  As others said, definitely improve insulation as much as possible.

Interesting.  That efficient?Have you thought about grid tie solar? And what mini split are you using?

Every damn day. Running into Pinelands issues with installing solar. I have a fight ahead of me for that, but yes I want a 13kW system.

This one.

https://www.ecomfort.com/Fujitsu-9RLS3HY/p79842.html

1 minute ago, Darrenf said:

Every damn day. Running into Pinelands issues with installing solar. I have a fight ahead of me for that, but yes I want a 13kW system.

This one.

https://www.ecomfort.com/Fujitsu-9RLS3HY/p79842.html

Freaking pinelands commision sucks!

Op, I’m sorry for sidetracking this. But @Darrenf 13kw is ginormous! Awesomeness!

Op, I’m sorry for sidetracking this. But [mention=6758]Darrenf[/mention] 13kw is ginormous! Awesomeness!

I use a LOT of electricity. My bill averages $340 a month. We also cook a lot and the stove is electric. Next one will be propane.

Side note, Our hybrid water heater did reduce my bill about $25 a month.

Hydronics is cool, but won't provide cooling, and people don't like how much needs to be cut to add the plumbing to a finished home. OP, were you quoted two large ducted mini splits and one small head all connecting to one condenser ? 

Was quoted a ducted air handler for downstairs and a ducted air handler with a separate wall unit for upstairs. 

 

These were the units. All from Mitsubishi 

mxz-5c42nahz

mvz-a30

msz-fh12

puz-a42nka7

pva-a42