FBodyJim

Fair comment, I'll try them first thing tomorrow.

Thanks Dave. The sad part is that I really just don't have the deep pockets and time, and I'm not a good sob story for the public to rally behind, and there is really no good reason in the world why I don't just give any other of thousands of possible names.... other than the law not saying I have to. After talking about it with some of my friends, I think the ONLY solution is to just go give him additional names, and then try to work with the people we have in office, and I have a good relationship with, and try to get the laws changed or clarified. Unfortunately, I also feel like any law changes regarding firearms in NJ will be just more laws against our favor, and still leave all of the holes, questions and arbitrary decision making. It's just frustrating living here and trying to be a good, honest law-abiding, gun owning citizen. Most police just automatically make us the bad guys and treat us as such, and there is little or no recourse against it, sad really. I'll keep the forum on how things turn out or what direction I decide to go. Maybe I'll make some calls tonight and see what kind of support/help I can get from the Att Gen, or a state legislator, or a lawyer or the NRA, but again, I'm just not a good sob story for a person NEEDING another handgun and being wronged by the law.

As posted on my blog here http://averagenoone.blogspot.com/2011/07/long-branch-police-captain-gil-horrach.html It's no big secret, I'm a legal gun owner. Every gun I own has been legally purchased, with all of the proper permits, through all of the proper channels. As I've noted recently, I have had so many background checks done on me that the police could save money by having a Black Helicopter and some guys in suits follow me around 24/7., and I also noted that getting a permit in NJ is always a problem, it's just predictable at this point. So back on June 30th, I submitted another Handgun Purchase Permit Application to my local Long Branch Police Department, John something handles that stuff. The form, and law, requires the names and addresses of two non-relatives who are acquainted with me. I don't know why the law asks for this, it seems a bit silly really. The forms they mail out ask questions that the police should already know the answers to, ie, am I a drunk, domestic abuser, convict, trying to overthrow the US government.... well I mean I am a Republican... ahh anyhow, let's focus here, this is serious stuff. So in the past I'd always given my girlfriend, same address with a different last name as one reference and my sister-in-law, SAME last name, different address; I've never had a problem. The LBPD sends out their little letters, two people who know me well send back their answers, I get my permit, legally and lawfully make a purchase, and all is well in the world. This time, I figured I'd change things up a little. Rather than give my sister-in-law's name, I decided to give my GIRLFRIEND's son's name. Now his last name is different from my lastname, AND his last name is different from my GIRLFRIEND's last name. Got it? Three last names, one residence. So let me quote the law. http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf states: N.J.A.C.13:54-1.4© The applicant shall provide the names and addresses of two reputable citizens personally acquainted with him as references. Somehow, the State Police then changed the law on their own and the form http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/sts-033.pdf says: (29) Names, Addresses and Telephone Numbers of two reputable persons who are presently acquainted with the applicant, other than relatives: So "other than relatives" seems to have been added, arbitrarily, by the State Police. No worries for ol' Jimmy, there is no legal relationship between my girlfriend and I, I certainly can't file a joint "married" return with her and she can't collect my SS benefits, even healthcare/patient access is a problem for us because, you guessed it, WE ARE NOT RELATED BY ANY LAW. Likewise, I certainly can't tell the IRS or NJ Div of Taxation that my girlfriend's son is MY dependent, they won't have that, and I can't get access to certain information of his at school, or the doctor, because again, WE ARE NOT RELATED BY ANY LAW. Yet, as you may have guessed by now, "John" over at Long Branch Police want two new names at two different addresses. Why? Well Captain Horrach is going to explain it to me if he ever answers his phone. John says his instructions from Captain Horrach are to get people "at another residence". I'm sorry sir, I just don't see that in the law. And let's think about it for a second here, who knows me better than the people I live with? Shouldn't the police make sure that the people I cohabitate with aren't drug dealers, gang members, terrorists... or trying to overthrow the US Government? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense for them to contact the people in the house where the firearm will be stored to verify that *I* am a "reputable person" and THEY are reputable people as well? So John says to me "well you can fill out the forms in other writing and send them back"... well I could, but that would be forgery, right John? And if you think I've committed such fraud, do please give me my day in court and prove your case. In the mean, how about you and your Captain follow the letter of the law and stop harassing me. I hope Dave Rible funds your pensions so you two can retire soon! PS - I should note, I did reach out to Dave Rible and Mary Pat Angelini's office for clarification on the law. I DID receive a call back from their office and upon first review, it seems I've not violated the letter of the law but they continue looking into this for me. I've also checked with a few attorneys, all are in agreement that in the State of NJ, or anywhere in the US, to the best of their knowledge/off the record, my GIRLFRIEND, and HER SON, are indeed, NOT RELATIVES. I sure hope this doesn't turn into a bigger problem.... and I sure hope that the local police aren't arbitrarily making up the laws as they go along. Didn't they take some oath? BTW - I think this is Captain Gil Horrach - http://www.linkedin.com/pub/gil-horrach/25/804/723 The APP's DataUniverse isn't working well at the moment, I wonder how much one gets paid to make up the laws? It surely should be more than the State Legislators who have to write the laws...

Sometimes I'm not sure why I bother but.... First, I'm not asking about NJ carry permits - I have to think those of us on this forum know those laws well enough. Second, sure, I know, all of the media is always all wrong all of the time. I got it, I know, really. http://www.fox12idaho.com/Global/story.asp?S=12682604 http://www.examiner.com/x-54250-Google- ... -man-cited http://wcbstv.com/local/navair.base.lak ... 63359.html So again, I'll repeat for the few people who might read and think about my question instead of just replying with non-sense. What is stated in multiple sources seems to be: 1) Carrying in NJ 2) Not registered in NJ 3) Was given a citation only for trying to bring the gun onto a military base, which again, I'd like to think those of us here know So I'll repeat my question and hope for a better researched answered - what kind of permit does this guy have and from where that he can carry a gun in NJ? And since the gun isn't registered in NJ, according to NJ.com and every other news source I've read this story at, it seems likely that the permit is not a NJ carry permit.

I might be late in asking, but based on the stories I've read, ie: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... raril.html that lockdown the other day at Fort Dix was due to a FedEx driver having a handgun in his truck. The stories all seem to go on to say something like "State police reports indicated the delivery truck driver has a permit to carry the weapon, a .38-caliber handgun." and further that the handgun was not registered in NJ. So any idea what kind of permit this guy might have and/or what kind(s) of federal permits might be available that seem to hold some weight in NJ? I mean, he was given a federal citation for bringing the gun onto a base, but he wasn't tossed in jail or fined for illegal possession of a handgun in NJ. And was he carrying as in on his person(s) or in carrying as in the gun was in a locked case in the cargo/trunk area of the truck out of the driver's reach? I suppose the guy could be a federal agent doing some side-work as a FedEx driver and this is easily explainable but I'd be curious to know some more info here if anyone has ideas what kind of permit the guy has/had and/or how he seemed to trump NJ gun law?

Agreed, going outside was one my biggest mistakes/the one thing I really regret for a few reasons and I'll certainly not make that mistake again. First, it left my GF (armed) and her son alone in the house. If there were multiple intruders, one could have been around back and gaining entry. I'd like to think the two of us together, armed, stand better odds against persistent intruder(s) than either or both of us on our own. Second, with me out of her sight, I had to yell over the sirens to her to let her know it was me coming back in and not to shoot me. I'd rather not get shot by my GF, at least not on a Sunday morning, or with a HP 9mm... Third, the legal aspect of shooting someone outside. Again, I think that overwhelming feeling of "I have to stop the bad guy" led me out there. In hindsight, I more than understand this could have been a huge legal issue for me and regret that mistake. Not to mention, as noted, a firefight outside of my house could be worse than a firefight inside my house. And add to that I could be walking out into an ambush of sorts from multiple armed intruders around corners/behind cars/etc and it was just dumb, dumb, dumb for lack of any better terms. Which leads me to Fourth and finally, luckily I had gone back inside to put the gun away and turn the alarm off before the police arrived. It could have ended badly for me if the police pulled up and saw me with a gun outside; mistake me for the bad guy on my own property and shoot me. Just as I don't want to be shot by the GF, I'd rather the local PD doesn't shoot me either. In any case, seems like maybe the verbal warning is 50/50 or so here too. I guess it would be impossible to know if in real situations a verbal warning was a final stopping deterrent or a give away/bad idea. Either way, should there ever be another alarm, I can only hope that I can react as quickly, I'd probably give the same verbal warning unless someone can really come up with a great reason/explanation for why not to, and I'd hope I'm giving a warning to no-one again. :|

So I had what turned out to be a non-incident at the house last weekend and I've been discussing the situation and my reaction/response with some folks and figured I'd ask for some input from here as well. Let me give some background. My house is a relatively small ranch in densely populated Long Branch, where crimes happen probably more-so than some other towns in Jersey. I'm also just down the street from Oceanport where there have been countless day-time burglaries in the past few months including one where a man came home to find the burglar in his house and the home owner was stabbed, so I've been on edge lately. I don't want to post all of the details of my home security system but I'll say that it's nothing too fancy - the typical house alarm with alarms on the doors and windows and a few well placed glass breaking sensor and motion sensors. I also have my own few motion lights outside of the house along with a simple multi-camera system that I turn on when I'm not home and I have a few outdoor switches/motion sensors on the property that chime in my bedroom as a sort of "pre-warning" system as something approaches/enters my property in areas where there shouldn't be motion at night. So as I said, the house is a small ranch, you can kind of think of the size being that of a long double-wide. Garage®/Living Room(L) in front, behind that a Bedroom®/kitchen-dining area(L), behind that at the back of the house is a spare bedroom/my master bedroom. Behind that is just my deck outside and my property backs to a 6ft fence and a small industrial property that should be quite at night. In general, I have/had confidence that my somewhat multi-layered security system would alert me to problems in significant advance, so when I found myself awoken to 165DB of noise blaring from my two sirens rather than the sound of a gentle chime from my motion/entry way switches, I immediately sprung out of bed and had my .357, which sleeps loaded and inches from me, in hand. So here is where some folks disagree with my handling of the situation, I'd be curious to know what others, who might have had such a scenario and who didn't just freeze or run out the back door, have done. As I put the gun in my hand I was already checking the immediate - the GF was still in bed trying to figure out what was making noise. My backdoor in the room was still closed, the dog was still in her bed, the alarm panel had all lights flashing so I had no idea where the intruder might have been. Gun pointed in the right direction, I approached the bedroom door at an angle that allowed me to check the rear spare bedroom door/window and also see that my GF's son was still in bed sleeping across the hall and he didn't set the alarm off. At this point I confirmed that my family was safe and the intruder was not already on me - this all within a second or two of being out of bed and I then gave a very loud and stern verbal warning "Get the F out of my house. I have a gun and I'll F-ing kill you". I waited a couple of seconds to listen for anything at all or see anyone at all - nothing. So I quickly moved up the hallway to where I could see into my kitchen/living room areas, clear. Nothing going on. Checked the doors/windows - nothing. Took a look outside... just a man... who had been kneeling down near my phone lines near my garage... and disconnected my phone, which triggered my alarm and I certainly scared the shit out of him when I approached, armed, probably almost as much as he'd scared the shit out of me by setting off my alarm while I was sleeping. Lucky for me it was just the ComCast man and lucky for him by this point I was processing what was going on and saw his ComCast badge/truck/etc so I approached with extreme caution but luckily didn't shoot the man. At the time I couldn't have told you if it was night or day, light or dark, but it turns out this was like 7:30am on a Sunday - really there was no sense of time or light when the alarm rang. Overall I feel like I did the right thing(s) in that I 1) didn't freeze 2) secured myself and my family quickly But I do wonder what the consensus is on the verbal warning and/or attempting to check/clear my own home? Should I have stayed quiet and waited to shoot? How long would I wait, until the police arrive? What if they come in when they hear my alarm going off and I'm not answering the door and they see me with a gun and shoot, or for that matter I see someone, who turns out to be a police man, with a gun and I shoot? Some people here might be interested but I for one don't really want to engage in a firefight with anyone, esp in my own home. Some people are suggesting I'd of given away that I was armed at all orwhere I was and I should have been quiet and just covered the long hallway lying in wait to shoot the bad guy(s), other more liberal friends seem to suggest that I should have "escaped" out of my backdoor with my family until the police arrived (I do have a backup radio/cell if the phone line is down/cut). I personally feel like the verbal warning should be the last possible chance for someone stupid enough to ignore the alarm signs/sounds so that if/when I have to shoot, there is no doubt in the mind of a jury that the intruder intended to me harm. I figure it should also scare off that idiot who figures on cutting the phone and banks on being out to rip a single siren out before a neighbor hears the noise (why I have two sirens). I also figure the verbal warning might cause an intruder pause just long enough to process my warning which bought my GF the extra couple of seconds she needed to get to her gun. Any of you guys ever had to deal with an intruder, or late night/early morning (false) alarm? Ever practice any kind of home defense scenario(s) with your family? Aside from moving into a "better" neighborhood and/or a house with a second story to help separate me and the bad guys/buy me an extra few seconds, anything more I could do to help secure my property/deter anyone? Again, this time it was just a false alarm/phone line being disconnected to cause the scene, next time it could be the real deal and I'd like to be as prepared as possible, systems wise and mentally. In any case, sure was scary, but it makes for a kind of funny story with the GF now - the two of us with loaded guns, ready to shoot the cable man, and my killer guard dog sound asleep in bed. :-)

As a Slomin's customer, I would look for something aside from Slomin or ADT mainly because to the best of my knowledge neither of these systems offer a cellular backup service. If your house is anything like mine, anyone who wanted to get in could stick some ear plugs in, cut the telephone line that comes in at waist level outside of my garage and aside from a hundred decibels of noise out of speaker that can be easily ripped out of the wall once inside, I'm SOL and said intruder has no worries that the police will ever show up. You'll pay more for a real alarm system with a cellular outdialer/backup, but in my opinion, anything that relies on a land based telephone, when the phones wires are easily accessible, or a single siren inside your house, that is easily disabled, is just a waste of money. FWIW - If you're tech savy - you might also consider a Slomin's type system and then setup your own CCTV/motion+light setup and use http://www.zoneminder.com/ to record. You might also setup a simple but secure ping server on your zoneminder server and have a client program run on a reputable outside host that just pings your home network every 15 seconds to make sure that the connection can be made. If a connection can not be made, have the client program email you (assuming your have a smart phone) and then you can find a nearby computer and check you cameras. And if all of the fancy tech seems a bit much, I second the .45 vote with a good holster and keep it on you while you're home. Lock it up in a real safe along with the other valuables when you're not home. Just my $0.02

Malsua, no problem on re-posting the picture - I'd of posted it that way but was out all day and trying to use my phone (droid) to post and I just wasn't doing well at using it. Regulator72, as I opened the passenger side door one of the "special agents" at the door unlocked it and poked his head out to tell us to leave and try coming back in a few hours and they should be back open. He was friendly enough about it but then again I dress like GI Joe so maybe he was just being friendly thinking I was more than your average gun toting NJGFer? Whatever the issue is/was, the "special agents" didn't seem to be in a panic or clinging to their guns as if an active shooter was on the scene. I was able to count/see 4 agents between the doors but not much else. I also couldn't make out which agency these "special agents" might have been with but they did all have Stinkin' Badges (and tacticool drop leg holster setups). I'd of assumed they were just at the range to qualify, train or something but the orange sign seems to indicate something different. As an interesting aside, there were no police cars/trucks/vans/etc in the parking lot. As you can see from the reflection in the glass, it was just my brother's car pulled right up in front and the jeep in the reflection next to him was his friend who came with us. To our right was Phil's (?) Vette and a greenish SUV(?). The rest of the lot down to the next business in the plaza was empty and none of the cars down that end looked "official" either. Not sure if these "special agents" got dropped off and their ride left, or if they were parked around back, or if they flew into the airport and walked over for that matter... I found the whole thing quite odd really. That all said, as a member of BA and a frequent visitor of BA who brings guests and new shooters as often as possible, I think Chad's "a mistake?" question is kind of a legit one and I'll be curious if anyone gets the real story or if I inquire next time I go, if anyone will provide some reasonable explanation. As a normal business, their business is their business and what they share or don't share is their call. BUT I'll offer this much to think about because it's the kinds of ideas that the four of us who were going were discussing when we saw "special agents" at the local shooting range, where we've bought several handguns, rounds of ammo and spent countless hours "training". (In Robert Stack Voice) Scenario #1: Federal Agents have seized all records from BA pertaining to who has taken a training class and/or even just purchased range time. Anyone having done either is now a member of the an anti-government militia and is under federal investigation and has been added to the no fly list for good measure. Now this is CLEARLY the most unlikely case and not the case at all but then I suppose we couldn't imagine this seemingly silly scenario if recent "news" stories and the political climate didn't make such thoughts possible. We discussed this one in depth, for the giggle, the longest. Scenario #2: Someone committed some armed felony and was stupid enough to leave the receipt for a box of ammo in their pocket when they were caught. The "special agents" were seizing surveillance video or records of some sort of said criminal purchasing ammo as evidence of some sort. Again, unlikely as I doubt too many criminals are legally purchasing their ammo from the local range. Then again, I could be wrong as I don't know any criminals nor do I know where they would obtain ammo otherwise. This was a fun scenario to chat about, but lacked a certain entertainment value of scenario #1. Scenario #3: Related to the suicide a few weeks ago, special agents were seizing a firearm/records/video/etc - more likely, but seems its been a while and they would have done this already long ago. It's also possible that some family member filed some lawsuit against BA and these "special agents" were working with that case. This seemed most likely but the least fun to talk about so we didn't imagine many fun details. Scenario #4: The "special agents" were some of you guys playing an April Fools gag a few days late. - This was quickly dismissed as being a dump, too little too late idea. Scenario #5: Unsolved Mysteries Scenario Recreation in progress. Without a doubt this is the only reasonable explanation :liar: So anyhow, as I said, I do hope some reasonable explanation is available if not just to calm the gossip and/or ease any paranoia because I think I've demonstrated the range of possible thoughts/worries from really serious to really stupid. If nothing else, I'd just like to be sure that ATF hasn't added me or any other BA members to the terrorist watch list or something stupid and/or investigates any/all BA members for anything related to firearms/ammo purchases where we believe we've done the right and legal things but maybe some "mistake" in paperwork at the range equates to some law(s) being broken with our permits/records/etc. Either way, we ended up down the street at SS for a few hours and assuming nothing major is going on, I'll probably stick with visiting BA for the foreseeable future. The guys at SS seemed alright, range was clean and well maintained and we had no problems or complaints, I just feel more comfortable at BA, maybe just because I'm used to going there.

On my droid but if this link works here is a pic from ba when I was there. https://m.google.com/app/buzz?source=mo ... 5178934713

Went over to ba around noonish and was greeted @the front door by a few fellers with "special agent" shirts. A sign n ext to the door said "notice of seizure". Any ideas what was up?

maksim, when I had it on the dyno, one of my cam lobes was broken so I was essentially running on 7 cylinders. I haven't had the car running with the 408 long enough to get it on the dyno or to the track but I'll hopefully have it back together towards the end of the year. It SHOULD make 500+ at the wheels on motor alone and it's setup for a big direct port nitrous system. The goal is/was low 10s if it ever runs. Chad - I work for a shipping logistics company on Industrial Way in Eatontown so I probably drive past your shop often. -- James Hogan http://www.txstock.com/

New member from Long Branch. Heard about the site from ARFCOM. I mainly shoot my S&W 686 (.357) at Brick Armory in Lakewood on weekends, usually Sundays. -- James Hogan http://www.txstock.com/