Bob B

The change has been made.

I just got off the phone with the Lower Township Police Department. They were very professional and cooperative. There was a two week period where they were checking that what I was saying was correct, but they have agreed to change their website to more accurately reflect the true legal requirements. The new language was read to me over the phone. It wasn't perfect, but the important errors have been corrected (I thought it wise not to dwell on the minutia). I was told that it will take a few days to update the website, but it will be updated to reflect the changes. If anyone else has any similar problems with their local PD's, please post them. I, and NJ2AS will do our very best to work constructively with your PD to get the discrepancies corrected, while you are able to remain anonymous. Thanks, OP, for bringing this up.

Anyone know when and where Christie will be doing another Town Hall?

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Tartaro1.htm

"Trust but verify."B)

NJ2AS is working on getting the court documents. We should have some in about a week and the rest in 30 days.

You will walk out of the meeting 90% complete with just one thing remaining -- the training certificate. Once you get that, just put a copy in the envelope and drop it in the mail. Gun For Hire is running the FL CCW station at the meeting. You should be able to sign up for their next NRA First Steps Class at the table. If not, you can do so on line. Or you can do the training before the meeting. There's still time: http://gunforhire.com/firearms_calendar.html It looks like there's a class Friday 11/12 and another Sunday, 11/14. I got my FL CCW on my own. If I knew then what I know now, I would have done it this way -- saves many hours of effort and costs about the same.

First Steps is acceptable. Here's the requirement:

Alaska Arizona Arkansas Delaware Florida Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska New Mexico North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Pennsylvania South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Washington West Virginia Wyoming Source: http://handgunlaw.us/ Click on the state of Virginia.

In my opinion, this is the best site to learn about the carry laws of various states. http://handgunlaw.us/ Click on the state that you want to review.

Just to clarify, the non-resident permit is highly desirable. It is good in Florida plus 30 other states, to include Pennsylvania.

Full auto is good for two things: 1. Missing your target 2. Running out of ammo

The last time I checked the docket for the Revell case it showed over 125 filings or events in the case since Jan '06. I attached the three that I thought were most important. In short, the good news is that the charges were dropped and Revell got his gun back (two years later). The bad news is that, in the civil case, the judge decided that the arresting officer had probable cause and that ANJRPC could not be a plaintiff. After probable cause was affirmed, the case fell apart and Revell's claims were dismissed. However, the interesting and unusuall thing is that ANJRPC appealed the decision to remove them as a plaintiff. The appeal was granted and the case was reopened. So, the last time I looked, the case was continuing with ANJRPC as the only plantiff. Go figure! Revell v Port Auth Opinion 033109.pdf revell USCA Opinion 042309.pdf ANJRPC amended complaint 052909.pdf

This is a great thread. I have thouroughly enjoyed reading the very thoughtful and insightful comments. I just wanted to point out that Frank's definition of "Living Document" seems to be "changeable through the appropriate process" and doesn't seem to be the most common meaning of the term. Justice Scalia said in a speech in 2005 that: (Read the whole speech here: http://www.cfif.org/...onal-speech.htm). The Constitution can be changed by Congress, or the States. It cannot (by design) be changed by the Executive or Judicial Branch (although the Judicial Branch has succeeded in creating for itself, that authority). The term "Living Document" or "Living Organism" is something that law professors and justices came up with in order to teach their students and give themselves a view of the Constitution that would allow them to interpret it in accordance with todays social environment and needs (as they see them). It was never intended for the Judiciary to have that kind of power, and in my view, has resulted in some surprising decisions. It lead to four out of nine Supreme Court Justices opining that the Second Amendment, even though it says what it says and means what it says, isn't a restriction on government, as long as there is some other need of society that counters the argument, i.e. "health, safety and welfare." This, of course ia a perversion. Consider this paragraph from Justice Souters speech at Harvard a few years ago (one who subscribes to the "living organism" theory: (Read the whole speech here: http://news.harvard....souters-speech/) My point is, be careful when using the term "Living" when applied to the constitution, it doesn't mean "amendable" it means "bendable." "Amendable" good, "bendable" bad! If you read both speeches, you will have heard both arguments from the best possible source of both arguments, and you may then decide for yourselves.

I agree that the chances of that happening are very slim, but I am curious - why do you think that is the case? Is it because that is what they believe, or is it out of fear of some kind of consequence?

Well, that's a whole other issue. Where that comes from is an Attorney General Opinion (see attached file). The AW statute includes firearms that are "substantially identical" to those on the list. Since that is such a vague term, the AG had to come up with a definition of "substatially identical." This is an example of an AG creating law. The definition in the AG letter was then added to the Administrative Code. It can't be added to the statute without a bill going through the legislature, passing and being signed into law. As an aside, this is why I have the opinion that the only thing needed to make NJ almost shall issue is for the AG to issue an opinion that states that post McDonald, self-defense is adequate justifiable need. Chris Christie could tell his AG to do that tomorrow if he wanted. But that's another topic.B) 3assltf.pdf

I took the class at Ft. Dix a few months ago. They did a great job. I went through all four stations, bow, shotgun, rifle and muzzle loader. A little know fact about the NJ Hunter's Ed card is that it meets the training requirement for getting a FL CCW, and it's free (the card is free and that's all you need for the FL CCW. You have to pay for the hunting license). I went through the course and got my hunting license just for the heck of it. Then, I had an unexpected opportunity to go hunting. Since I had my license, I was able to go. This morning I had ground venison with eggs over-easy, mmmmmmm. There's just something about ground venison and eggs.B)

A standard of scrutiny was not established in Heller or McDonald, but, generally, it is thought that at least intermediate scrutiny will apply. Either way, there is no important or compelling government interest in forcing a retailer to maintain a log of purchasers of ammunition that I can think of. But, the petition process is not a lawsuit, so who knows what may happen.

I apologize in advance for the long post. Just to clarify, there are two main components of NJ “law” that cause problems for us. The first are the statutes themselves, N.J.S.A. (New Jersey Statutes Annotated), specifically, 2C:39-1 et seq, and, 2C:58-1 et seq (“et seq” is fancy lawyer talk for “and what follows”). Next is the Administrative Code, N.J.A.C (New Jersey Administrative Code), specifically, Title 13, Chapter 54. Title 13 covers Law and Public Safety, Chapter 54 covers Firearms and Weapons. The New Jersey State Police (NJSP) are authorized by the statutes mentioned above to create administrative rules in order to be able to enforce the statutes. For example, they can make a rule that requires ammunition retailers to documents that they verified the age of purchasers of handgun ammunition to be at least 21. The NJSP are also authorized to verify that these rules are being followed, in this case by inspecting the retailers’ log books. These rules, once adopted, become the Administrative Code. The Administrative Code is not punitive. You cannot go to jail for violating the Administrative Code. However, it still has teeth, because, the licensing of firearms and ammunition retailers is governed by N.J.A.C. and if the retailers don’t follow the code, they can lose their licenses. When the N.J.A.C. goes beyond what the N.J.S.A. requires, or the NJSP inspectors create requirements that go beyond what the N.J.A.C. requires, the retailers generally just comply. They don’t want to risk losing their license, even temporarily. An example of this is that, by statute, only the sale of hollow nose and dum dum ammunition is required to be recorded in a permanent log. However, N.J.A.C. requires that any ammunition that is interchangeable with a handgun must be recorded. Then the inspectors come along and hand a print out of all of the Thompson Contenders and tell the retailers that they must record nearly all ammunition sales. Statutes can only be changed by passing a new bill into law, or by litigating. The Administrative Code can be challenged by any citizen with what is called a “petition for rulemaking.” I have a test petition in the works right now challenging the requirement described above. After experiencing some delay tactics, I am now supposed to receive a reply by mid Nov. If anyone comes across anything in N.J.A.C. that does not match the requirements in N.J.S.A. please let me know and I will investigate to see if there is a potential to submit another petition. The New Jersey Administrative Code can be found here: http://www.michie.com/newjersey/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp= The New Jersey Statutes Annotated can be found here: http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=26751858&depth=2&expandheadings=off&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&softpage=TOC_Frame_Pg42

Sorry to reopen the discussion on this, but I have been giving some thought to the subject of gun shows in NJ. My hypothesis is that a gun show would be possible, if it were held at a range (to eliminate any possession issues) and if only FTF sales were permitted (dealers must buy and sell at their premises). In other words, dealers could participate with general items, but could not sell firearms. Non-dealers could buy and sell firearms with other non-dealers, as long as there was no intent to do it as a business. Any thoughts?

This is the specific requirement: You could try. If it's not enough, they will call you or send you a letter and ask for something additional.

Who me?

Yes, or you can take the class before Nov 17th and bring a copy of the certificate. If anyone is in that situation, if you can, please support GFH by taking the class with them, since they have been gratious enough to support us with this service. I took the SORA class with them. It was top notch.

In an effort to offer as much as possible at our meetings, NJ2AS has just partnered with Gun For Hire to provide a FL CCW application station at the meeting. You can see all of the details in this thread, which I just posted: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19394-nj2as-and-gun-for-hire-offer-fl-ccw-station-at-nov-17th-meeting-in-toms-river/page__pid__255306#entry255306 We hope that this makes the menu a little more appetizing! ...and, we will continue to pay close attention to your comments and suggestions and work hard to provide the best information and services possible. Thanks for your support!