Midwest

There is an alternative, find the same career in another state.

Bug out bag additions. That Cheese spead stuff that comes in a spray can http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Cheese Take some crackers and vacuum seal 12 at a time in small bags.

Me too, I remember when Dicks was selling .38 spl for $5.99 a box of 50 remanufactured Ultramax. I think the PMC were more, like $7 or $8 a box. And Centerfire systems was selling 7.62 X 39 for $49.95 for a Spam can of 640 rounds of Wolf ammo.

We had our 17 year cicada cycle last decade. Some areas got it worst than others. It would be a loud roar if you were in an area where they all congregated. http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/02/29/loc_cicadas29.html Here is a good site on the 2013 Cicadas http://inside.msj.edu/academics/faculty/kritskg/cicada/Site/Cicada_Facts.html

I have been advocating this for years including an extensive mental health history check, have them fingerprinted and have them write a five page written explanation on why they want to run. And also include a bond contract in which they swear to uphold the laws of the constitution and the bill of rights. If they, support, introduce, vote for, sponsor any legislation that goes contrary to the bill of rights and the constituion. They lose the bond money and can get thrown out of office for failing to live up to bond contract.

Highway patrol gave feds Missouri weapon permits data http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/highway-patrol-gave-feds-missouri-weapon-permits-data/article_266b644e-a235-11e2-a8e7-0019bb30f31a.html The story says that the Highway Patrol handed over information about Missouri concealed carry holders to the Federal Government. There are many questions including why someone wanted the list and what are they going to do with the list. We keep hearing fears of ending up on a list somewhere, especially a Federal Government list. Are other states doing this? Is it common for the Federal Government to ask, request,demand such info from the states about their conceal carry holders? “When they turn over the entire list of concealed carry holders in the state of Missouri to the federal government, where is it going?”

I'm going to relate what happened at Walmart yesterday. Even though I'm in Kentucky, just replace Walmart with any store that sells ammo in NJ and I'm willing to bet it might be same that y'all experience at your local ammo store. Talking to inlaws in Ohio, who waited in line at Dicks Sporting Goods for ammo to arrive ...this kind of thing could be happened all over the country. And I did notice that talking with other people line gives a true insight on what is going on in the minds of the average gun owner. Seems we all have the same thoughts and concerns, talking about ammo and firearms is a good way to pass time while waiting. Here is the story that I related on another pro-gun site. I was 'lucky' yesterday. I go to Walmart to the sporting goods section. There was no handgun or rifle ammo except for .410 Judge, .243 Winchester and some other odd stuff. We hear from someone else that the trucks just came in, we are waiting and waiting at the counter.... First we were told that they cannot release ammo until the truck has been fully unloaded. It was 5 pm and it would be at least 8 pm. We ask to see the manager, him and another manager stop by and explain their store policy that they cannot release ammo until the truck is fully unloaded. There were two other people ahead of me in line, I just said I need a box or two of 45 acp (I would have bought three boxes if I could). The other two customers needed .40 and 9mm .There is a 3 box limit per customer. The other customer ahead of me tries talking to one manager, I just said I needed a box of .45 acp, the other customer chimes in and says just give us a number and we'll just shop the store until the numbers are called. Manager says they tried that once and people were bringing in numbers from the other day and it was an abuse of the system. So I said, I'll pay in advance and just set it aside for me, manager they can't do that. OK, I guess we wait, meantime there was a line forming for the ammo...seems most wanted the 9 mm. The manager said he was going to look at the truck and left, and we are all waiting and talking about the ammo situation. Some of the customers were relating horror stories of places where they saw common 9 mm ammo sell for $50 online. Another customer gave his theories on why there is ammo shortage, another one was questioning why the govt needed hollow points and other was explaining that he cut back on target shooting until he could buy another box of ammo. The manager comes back with the flat cart. There were just a few ammo cases on the truck. The guy behind the counter opens up the cases and goes through them. First guy in line buys three boxes of 9mm. The second guy wanted .40 cal but settles for three boxes of 9 mm. Me..third in line was 'lucky' there was ONE 50 round box of .45 acp. There was no more handgun ammo left, the people behind me were looking for 9mm, .22 cal , and other regular handgun and rifle ammo, there was some rifle ammo but I didn't wait around to see what it was. I paid for the single box of .45 acp considered myself lucky and left. At this point the line was pretty long and I could see people were frustrated and disappointed. I think the same thing is repeated across all the stores nationwide. Get what you can, while you can, for the least amount of money you can stand to spend. .

Some more excerpts and comments from the March 2 1966 for A165 the FID 'Sills Act' Hearings Page 7 Mr Sills uses the term "resonable" when discussing his bill. (Can anyone recall how many politicians have said over the years since then that a particular gun control bill is a reasonable one? I would venture to guess that today's anti-gunners might have got some of their 'talking points' from Mr Sills back in the 1960's.) Page 18 Mr Burton (Pro-gun side) makes the point that if the hearing were held during the evening or on the weekend there would be thousands of people attending. Page 19 Mr Burton makes the point that police officers are against the bill because of staffing and administrative concerns. In addition that Police Chiefs would have to be the ones to make medical and psychiatric judgements regaring physical fitness. He mentions that fingerprinting is reprehensible to honest citizens. To single out sportsmen is discriminatory unless every citizen is fingerprinted. Page 20 Mr Burton notes that the Firearm Purchasers Identification Card the so-called "Lifetime $2 Permit is now up to $25 in New York" and notes that section 32B would require a certification for every purchase in addition to the permit. He says this is like wearing suspenders and a belt. Mr Burton is concerned that A165 is aimed at total registration of all firearms. which Mr Burton claims is the real goal of this bill because the required certification contains the serial number. Page 23 Mr Burton notes the requirement of gun club members to be listed with the state police. Mr Burton goes on to page 30 bringing out some excellent concerns and important points. Then Mr.Burton goes with a Q and A session. Page 36 Mr Burton notes that there have been congressional hearings that said if there were total confiscation of firearms the problem would solved. Page 37 Mr Burton refers to the 1965 Senate Hearing with Mr Sills (the architect of the FID legislation) in which Mr Sills said that " If registration is the answer, and I think it is, then that is what should be done" Page 39 Mr Burton mentions that in 1963 Los Angeles tried to pass a very-strong anti-firearms law, a man who testified for them turned out to be a member of the Communist Party in favor of the law. Page 54 Director of the NRA Louis Benton speaks. He mentions that he started meeting with Sills in Late 1964 and met again in March 1965 to read Sills version of the (FID law) bill. He brings out great points including how strict gun control has worked in Britain with crime up 250% . He goes on to say that "We don't need identification cards" and "We don't want to start a police state." (The proposal for the 1966 FID law goes back a few years before this). To summerise this. If anyone wishes to take the pdf and re-type it and put it on a blog, then by all means please do. This is public information and I doubt it is copyrighted material. I think there were some good arguments against the bill. One wonders if the internet was available back then, and..or, if more people showed up in opposition perhaps the bill would not have passed. The bill was challenged a few times. The more famous challenge was the Burton vs Sills http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/burton_v_sills.txt . It is hope that by looking at this hearing from 47 years ago as historical context in hope of either someday overturning this law, having it modified and or replaced with something much better by looking what methods were used to bring this about in the first place. It is interesting to see how Mr Sills was involved with the anti-gun movement, not just in New Jersey but nationwide in his contributions to the Dodd hearings which ultimately drafted the 1968 GCA. Also noteworthy, but more chilling ... was the talk going around in Washington about how total gun confiscation would solve the problem. Almost like the concerns and fears that some believe we face today. It might be noted that two years after New Jersey started their Firearm Purchasers ID Card, Illinois came out with their FOID. Firearms Owners ID card. Massachusetts pobably started their FID card scheme in the 1970's I believe. I hope somehow the pdf of the hearings can be used as a study to look at the tactics and hype that were used in order to pass this through into law.

I hope to go over more of this as time permits. Page 90A. Second paragraph from the bottom. Its says "public health, safety and welfare" was a term used by a 'Baltimore bill that has been held by the courts to permit search without warrant even of a home.' . Note that "public health, safety and welfare" are mentioned in other parts of the hearing. Page 63A The arguments are for a 'revoked list' of people ineligible to purchase firearms instead of mandating an firearms ID Card. Page 14 Sills mentions that he appeared in June 1965 at Senator Dodd's committee. This points to the allegation that Sills was working with Dodd on a gun control bill. Senator Dodd was holding Gun Control hearings for some years leading up to the 1968 GCA. It would be interesting to see what Sills said at the 1965 Dodd hearing. Pages 15 and 16 Sills mentioned about children being murdered by 'deranged' parents or by getting shotguns as gifts. Pages 5 and 6 Sills mentions a list of occupations where people get fingerprinted so he is implying that getting fingerprinted to buy a rifle is no big deal (in his view of things). Page 7 Toward the bottom of the page, Sills says that because of an obscure 'weapons and explosive law' in 1898 ...that somehow makes this proposed FID law 'constitutional'. Page 15 On the bottom, Sills is trying to say that people who oppose this legislation would be disqualified as unfit to purchase firearms. Somehow insinuating that if you have 'legitimate' use for firearms that this bill poses no threat or hardship of any kind. Thus somehow implying that the bill should pass and everyone who is legitimate should support it. So I guess that statement could have intimidated some people at the hearing into keeping quiet and not speaking up that the proposed law is a violation of the second amendment and should not be passed. Interesting how he worded things... I'll try to pick out more things later on. But I get the impression that the he was hell bent on having this thing passed no matter what even implying that the FID legislation is no hardship. Tell that to the people waiting weeks and months for their permits.

I have been wanting for ages to get this converted to text so I could upload it in parts in here and avoid attachments. I tried a few pdf to text apps and they just didn't pan out. Then I been meaning to just type it out and haven't had the time, I'm glad this worked out instead. And thanks for your blob, a lot great info there.

Hearings for the 1966 FID Law March 2 1966 Here is the link to the pdf of the actual hearings for A165 Public Hearing for the proposed Sills Act for the Firearms ID law on march 2 1966. Find out who opposed the law, who supported it, who attended the hearings, the politics of the time surrounding the proposal. Find out who Arthur Sills is and how he changed the way firearms were bought in New Jersey. This has been uploaded to Google Drive, made public and the link is below. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-_3nzDGTebjblYxTTF2R3VHcnM/edit?usp=sharing In addition, for those wishing to do more research on the history on New Jersey's Gun Laws. The two links below should be helpful. http://cemeterysgunblob.com/2012/01/14/when-did-new-jersey-become-so-anti-gun/ http://cemeterysgunblob.com/2012/01/15/when-did-new-jersey-become-so-anti-gun-part-deux/

I'm just being careful what I shoot and now only bring 100 rounds of .22 lr when we shoot in the woods. I don't know how much .45 acp is going for a box in NJ. But before this mess started, I was able to get a box of 50 for $23. I was considered lucky to be able to find a box of 50 of .45 acp for $32. The store owner could not guarantee a steady supply. Inlaws over in Ohio mentioned that they had to camp out in front of Dicks Sporting Goods waiting for the truck to arrive in order to get any handgun or rifle ammo. Meijers (which is a much smaller type of Walmart regional store chain here in the Midwest) hasn't had handgun or rifle ammo since late December 2012.

AXS Ch 340 on Direct TV will have an encore tonight Dec 13 @7:00 pm.

I thought I mention about the state next to me, Ohio. I have heard stories that people have applied for carry permits and got them in just a couple of days to a week in Hamilton and Butler Counties.

Kentucky http://www.kc3.com/k...nse_process.htm The first step is to sign up for a training course offered by an instructor certified by the KY Department of Criminal Justice Training (DOCJT). The list of certified instructors that are also KC3 members is found here. The complete list of certified instructors for a particular county can be obtained from each county sheriff or the statewide list can be found here on the DOCJT website. In addition, your favorite gun store or firearms range can usually point you toward a class and some will even provide the service on premises. The instructor may, by statute, charge up to $75 (it is very rarely offered any cheaper) and he is also allowed to assess a nominal fee for range rental and expendables up to $10. It is always best to ask the instructor ahead of time for specific instructions, but you will likely need to have the following items available at the class: a handgun of any caliber or type (it does NOT have to be the one you intend to carry) 50 rounds of ammunition specific to the gun you will be using a holster or case for the gun a pistol cleaning kit suitable for the gun you will be using eye and ear protection a pen and some paper to take notes during the course ALL guns must be UNLOADED and UNCONCEALED when brought into the classroom and all guns WILL be inspected for serviceability by the instructor prior to the shooting exam. During the course, you will watch two hours of video training which covers the Kentucky Revised Statutes (KRS) on Firearms and Carrying Concealed Deadly Weapons (CCDW) and the Use & Misuse of Force and Liability. Both of these videos are produced by DOCJT. While these tapes are a bit tedious to sit through, they provide you with valuable instruction on the KY statutes regarding firearms, concealed carry procedures and licensing, and most importantly, the legally justifiable use of deadly force. In addition to the tapes, you will receive instruction on safety in the classroom, at home, and on the range, the principles of marksmanship, and pistol and revolver nomenclature and function. You will then be required to pass a written test to demonstrate that you have absorbed the information that has been presented. Next you will fire at a standard police training silhouette target (type B-21) at a range of seven yards. You must place eleven (11) out of twenty (20) shots within the outline of the silhouette to qualify for your license. The instructor may conduct as many practice rounds as necessary, until he or she feels comfortable with the students' skill level and ability to pass. Only one retest is permitted. After the shooting test you will clean your gun and it will be inspected by the instructor for the purpose of demonstrating that you can maintain your weapon. When you satisfactorily complete the course of instruction, the instructor will notify DOCJT that you have met the training requirements necessary to apply for your license and a few weeks later you will receive a certificate from the DOCJT. You will next present this certificate to the sheriff of your county of residence along with your application, a “head and shoulders” photograph of yourself 4”x5” in size, proof of residence, and the application fee of sixty dollars ($60). Keep in mind that ALL of the information you submit with your application is done under oath and any materially false answer to any question could subject you to prosecution under the perjury statutes. Since the sheriff is allowed some leeway in the application process, it is always best to call the sheriff of your county of residence in advance of your visit to his office to get the specific requirements for the application. Sometimes the sheriff will shoot the picture for you for an additional charge; letting them do the picture guarantees its acceptance. Keep in mind that Polaroid pictures are usually accepted, only if the pose and size are correct, but "passport" photos are too small. When you call to ask about the picture options, be sure to ask what constitutes proof of residency. Get his office hours also, some departments only do CCDW license applications at certain times and many have “bankers” hours. The sheriff will transmit your application to The Kentucky State Police (KSP) who will then verify your qualifications, do a background check on you and, provided you qualify in all respects, will issue your license and send it back to the sheriff for you to pick up. It usually takes 3-6 weeks for the KSP to do their job but they are allowed 90 days under the law to issue the license or deny the application. When your license is sent to the sheriff for issuance, you will receive notification in the mail in the form of a “flashpak” with instructions to pick it up. TAKE THE FLASHPAK WITH YOU and trade it to the sheriff for your license. You are now free to carry concealed deadly weapons in the Commonwealth of KY, as well as a number of other states that accept licenses issued by KY, SUBJECT TO the procedures and restrictions set by the various states and sometimes localities. The list of states with reciprocity / recognition is constantly growing, go here for the most up-to-date information.

Hi-Point 45 acp for $160 +/- . Good points, it has never jammed, lifetime warranty and it is inexpensive.

Normally yes, but the manufacturer can apply to the BATF for a sporting purpose exemption just like they do for shotguns. That is how these rifles are being able to be sold as a regular rifle. So the question one might ask is why a .700 or a .950 jdj could be sold and not the Streetsweeper? The reason why the Striker12/Streetsweeper was considered a DD was because the BATF ruled that it didn't have a 'sporting purpose' even though it shot regular shotgun shells. But apparently these 'elephant rifles' do have a 'sporting purpose'.

Elephant hunting in the Pine Barrens?

My brother in law had the Ruger .22 target pistol, it was fairly accurate and never jammed. Also there are some nice 8 shot .22 cal revolvers out there as well. Then go a .38 special or .357 revolver for home defense. The Rossi five shot .38 special bought used, can be a good deal.

If NJ changed it's gun laws overnight to those of PA's, would you still plan to move? Would you move back to NJ if their gun laws changed to those like PA's?

I think gun ownership in NJ has gone up due to sites like this one . But I think the major problems are the media, politicians and the gun laws themselves. It seems that for every good news piece that comes out in favor for conceal carry or gun ownership...it seems the media comes out with five or ten stories against it. As an outsider, I have no easy panacea. I could easily say that the gun laws are the reason gun owners leave the state. But maybe there are other contributing factors too like high taxes, crime and quality of life issues. So as an outsider, I need to ask this question. If the guns laws were to magically turn around tomorrow and be the same as Pennsylvania's. Would you still remain in New Jersey for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 15 years or never move? I think a poll is in order. I'd like to see people's responses.

The media and peer pressure have a lot to do with it. I see references that NJ.Com is anti-gun and people read that stuff and think it is normal. There is not a lot of gun owners like there are in other states. Part of that problem is the permitting process might be intimidating for some, someone wanting to buy a .22 rifle for target practice has to go through a intrusive background check that needs fingerprints, references, mental health checks, fees and long waits for the ID card. Other states people can just get a .22 rifle and be out of the store in 10 minutes. So add the 'intimidation factor' to media and peer pressure. I think the NRA threw NJ under the bus along time ago. It is unfair as gun owners need all the help they can get. Another issue is less gun owners per year in NJ as they are leaving the state (and its high taxes and draconian gun laws behind). Because moving a few miles across the border into PA or further south into Florida ,North Carolina or Virginia is easier in the long run and less expensive than hoping and waiting for politicians to come around and get it. The politicians won't as long as the media and brainwashed public is against gun ownership and casts gun owners in a negative light. As for NY? Their pistol laws have been in place since 1911, but there are upstate counties were you can get a carry permit. No ID cards or permits needed for long guns outside of New York City.

The Mental Health Check is done through Albany, so I guess the NJ State Police will contact Albany NY rather than the individual counties. Go to Post # 21 below http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/pistol-permits/33597-niagara-county.html

I have read some of the other forums. It seems if it wasn't for Cook County and Chicago in particular. Illinois would already would have a concealed carry permit law in place. There was even some talk about having a CCW law and excluding Chicago/Cook County out of it so the CCW law would pass. But many are against that because a concealed carry permit is needed in Chicago more than anywhere else in Illinois. Another issue Illinois has, is the patchwork of laws (home rule) that varies in some places from city to city and town to town. The state has to pass an preemption law in order for people to carry throughout the state. And that is a battle in itself. But as they say 'one step at a time'. While Illinois doesn't allow for carrying. There are 'exceptions' and 'exemptions' like for police, other law enforcement and some city officials like 'Alderman' . Armed guards have to get certification to be an armed guard it is called a (PERC) card and after that they have to qualify for a "Tan Card" then they can carry but only under some circumstances like the 'one hour rule'. If anyone is interested how Illinois does their 'process'. http://www.icarry.org/ftopicp-6333-.html "The tan card is a 20 hour course. The tan card is not ordered by you, it not owned by you. It is ordered through the agency you work for and they own it. When you cease employment, they get their tan card back. You cannot get a tan card without having the PERC and a FOID. It's a well known fact that wealthy businessmen who invest in security and PI agencies have tan cards ordered for them. No, they don't work for the agency but they invest in them and they want something for their investment other than a monetary return. There is the 1 hour to and 1 hour from carry rule. However, those wealthy businessmen are considered "supervisors", keep in mind they don't work for the company at all, and end up carrying 24/7. "

In 1993 the Clipper Chip was announced. There was a lot of opposition to it from Senators, consumers, consumer rights groups and even manufacturers. In 1996 the idea was shelved. There seems to be little outcry against this sort of stuff these days... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip But the heart of the concept was key escrow. In the factory, any new telephone or other device with a Clipper chip would be given a "cryptographic key", that would then be provided to the government in "escrow". If government agencies "established their authority" to listen to a communication, then the key would be given to those government agencies, who could then decrypt all data transmitted by that particular telephone. The newly formed Electronic Frontier Foundation preferred the term "key surrender" to emphasize what they alleged was really occurring Organizations such as the Electronic Privacy Information Center and the Electronic Frontier Foundation challenged the Clipper chip proposal, saying that it would have the effect not only of subjecting citizens to increased and possibly illegal government surveillance, but that the strength of the Clipper chip's encryption could not be evaluated by the public, as its design was classified secret, and that therefore individuals and businesses might be hobbled with an insecure communications system. Further, it was pointed out that while American companies could be forced to use the Clipper chip in their encryption products, foreign companies could not, and presumably phones with strong data encryption would be manufactured abroad and spread throughout the world and into the United States, defying the point of the whole exercise, and, of course, materially damaging U.S. manufacturers en route. Then-Senators John Ashcroft and John Kerry were opponents of the Clipper chip proposal, arguing in favor of the individual's right to encrypt messages and export encryption software.