Luso

Anyone that has read this thread and believes it is the right course of action, or anyone that attended tonight's meeting and believes in this mission, please tell your friends and the leadership of any organization you belong to, not just NJ2AS, that this matters to you. Tell them you don't want to stand by waiting around for God-send court decisions and politicians, that you want to be proactive and not reactive. Some people seem to think we have to wait for some perfect storm to happen. They sit there petrified and painfully analyzing every potential negative outcome as an excuse for inaction like wusses. Before you know it, in 2 months we will be facing another magazine restriction bill, and we will once again be scrambling on permanent defense. That is the losing proposition. Let's get on offense: tell them that narrative and consequences is all that matters, tell them you are tired of having debates, and protests, and discussions, and meetings. They get us nothing. Tell them you want and demand results. Everything else is just talk, and talk is cheap. We all know the system is unfair and we aren't happy with it. Stop discussing how pissed off you are and feeling cool about having intellectual debates on the best course of action. Just destroy their narrative. Consequence is everything, and we will win

Who says I'm not already a member? The question isn't paying arbitrary dues, it's doing something with that money that advances our freedoms. And I'm not singling out an organization, I'm curious, beyond the contact I've had, what reactions other people are having, in hopes that these orgs understand that this is something everyone wants And if they don't agree, what better alternative they might suggest to achieve this goal

So has anyone gotten feedback from any nj groups?

If everyone carried, these absurd knockout games never would have even started. We need a few more of these punks that are assaulting and even killing innocent people catching a bullet before they all learn their lesson. Instead they know every pedestrian in NJ is defenseless

Need any more proof that now is the time????? This guy chose not to be a victim http://www.wilx.com/news/featured/headlines/Dangerous-Game---Point-em-Out-Knock-em-Out-231443411.html?device=phone&device=tablet

Who has gotten reaction from somebody within a 2a group about this idea? Anyone noticing a pattern yet?

Maybe everyone can sign their letter "NJ courts decided my life is not worth saving, but bank deposits are" or "future victim" and get those rejection numbers up up UP

whatever it takes. and I know this sounds funny, but so long as we can get you and as many people possible rejected by some court within the state. Otherwise, we stay where we are stagnant, not advancing. FORWARD, never look back. I wish we had a thermometer somewhere on the home page of this website to keep track, and all board members should submit their rejection letters to see the thermometer going up, up, up. Let the world know how tyrannical and arbitrary NJ politics are. it's an irrefutable, visual representation of our rights being denied, and a clear anecdote proving that "may issue" is a total, arbitrary joke that is only reserved for connected individuals.

NJ is a one party consent state. Anyone on a public space can be recorded without consent Can someone point to the other instances where nj2as people recorded their interactions trying to get the application? I can't find any. Also, had anyone interacted with any members of a NJ second amendment group and gotten a communication from them as to whether they will help this campaign?

Make it abundantly evident to NJ's 2A groups that you belong to, that you demand this project begin on January 1 with their help and coordination, and that you are willing to do what it takes to assist and participate in the effort. Find out what position the groups are willing to take on doing this ASAP Post whatever answers you receive , and spread the message. Let's see who's about talk, and who's about action

And that's where the 2a groups can help, in that they can push a button and alert 20,000 active citizens who would be more inclined to do this than the general population of 1 million gun owners who may not. Plus this can be done on your own time, unlike rallies that were intentionally taking place during business hours when normal people have to go to work Look at the statistics- this is not some uphill battle that many think it is.. If we play our cards right you could generate a constitutional and civil rights crisis quite easily There are 8 million people in the state. Roughly 32,0000 active permits exist as of 2 years ago (source: http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/592552.pdf#page80) those are the government's own numbers, not some 2a group's contention That amounts to less than half of a percent of the total population with a carry permit, and roughly half of a percent of the total adult population Assuming its 32,000 total active permits, I would venture that 1,000 to 2,000 new people get permits annually. That is an incredibly small number of new applicants. If we can convince just 1000 people, which is completely realistic, to get rejected started January 2013, you can effectively take the acceptance rate to HALF. Do you see the civil rights crisis you can brew once you do that? Can you imagine if someone could discover a politician that has a permit (we know some of them already!) and put their face next to the faces of 20 black children shot and killed last year In Newark, Camden and Paterson, and ask why their pasty fat white guy doesn't need a justifiable need to carry a gun, while there is a holocaust against black children in our inner cities? You would cause a revolution There are so many places you can take this discussion once you cut the acceptance rate in half or more. You will create a civil rights crisis, and now all those people with permits look like tyrannical elitist deuchebags. You will prove to the nation that the reputation of being a mafia run state is completely true, except that the mafia is the state itself, shelling out permits to friends and politicians but denying every single upstanding citizen for no criminal reason whatsoever. It's stupendously arbitrary, and all we have to do is GET REJECTED in order to manufacture that outrage. The state will NOT look good having to defend a terrible stance like this! Christie is eyeing a presidency in 2016- you think he wants something like this on his hands? Or that he wants to look anti-second amendment before he goes to convince texans they should vote for him? The time unequivocally is now. There is nothing to wait for. This onslaught of applications should begin January 1 without delay. The only thing it costs is a little bit of time and a little bit of money from each of us to apply, and to be honest, in the long run you will do more for your carry rights in applying for a rejected application than you will donating to the NRA for a year's membership (and probably cheaper too)

That is the only video I can find in NJ. Can you share the links to some others? Would love to watch it

The school shooting in newtown ct that prompted a wave of gun control bills across the country as well as NJ I don't know who this person is, but so far he is my only hero in this state and has done more to advance ccw in NJ than any organization you can name He asked for an application, and they denied him because he didn't have a "job that required it" (which is BS and not a requisite to exercise your right to apply) He had the balls to publish this. He's not having some stupid discussion about whether asking for his right is a smart thing to do. He understands to cry foul you first have to prove you are being denied. Imagine if we had 100 videos in 100 cities across NJ where this same result happened? You would give the nj state police and legislators a huge black eye. You will have proven they categorically are denying you the ability to apply for something you should be able to. Looking tyrannical is not in their interest when they want us quiet and complacent. They prey on the fact that us dummies are sitting here debating to ask for a right, as opposed to this guy who not only asks for it, but intelligently documents it for posterity. That is already 10xs more effective than anything the NRA or anyone else has done for ccw in NJ. No one is coming to save us. We have to tell them what we want to do, and then execute. We need 5000 people like this gentleman in Elizabeth NJ to get in their faces and start demanding what we want, and what we lawfully should be able to at least APPLY for. First you embarrass the ones that refuse your application, then you prove the courts themselves are tyrannical and that May issue is a total joke. Then we go from there. You will get the media's attention, guaranteed , and the enemy will look really bad

John Stossel gets it, and he's in NYC which is even more tyrannical than here http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2842638742001/stossel-special-war-on-the-little-guy/?playlist_id=935446234001 Make the system give you an answer and take a position

I have nothing bad to say about NJ's groups. But something old glock guy said couldn't be more truthful We sit here pounding our chests that x amount of laws DIDNT get passed because of our efforts, but 2 or 3 did. That means incrementally, we have LESS freedom than we did before Playing defense all the time only results in further encroachment on your liberty. It's a losing proposition. Do you want incrementally worse gun laws slowly, or do you want to sack up and figuratively punch these scumbags in power back in the teeth? You have to go on offense, and make them take a position that is uncomfortable. Every second we are on offense, they are NOT on offense writing 17 more bills. What do you prefer? Look at what the past has gotten us to. Chicago, our president's home town, now has to reckon with concealed carry. Why the blank can't it happen here? Everyone is bogged down in process, ethics, morals, debate, opinions..it's a waste of time. Make them say no - make them make a chess move..then we can have this discussion in what to do next. Everyone needs to make it clear to whatever group you belong to that this is an operation you want to see executed ASAP. Not next year, not next summer, NOW This isn't about building inroads with politicians, scoring political points, metaphorical victories, etc. it's about advancing our liberties, and in this game you're either doing that or you're not. You can all pat your backs about the last year since newtown, but the fact of the matter is you are now strangled by more laws than you were before. Congratulations, we lost It's time for some damn offense. Stop listening to lawyers and other people who think they know what's best in this fight. Read these facts and decide for yourself: are we advancing the agenda? Or are we just incrementally losing rights? You will realize its only the latter and NONE of the former. Time for new tactics, and anyone who is told their group doesn't want to participate should openly be willing to tell them that your donation money is going elsewhere then. We are no longer here to defend the status quo. It's time to WIN. I would rather take up a fight and lose, occupying the legislators time who therefore can't write new bills because THEY are on defense, than sit here playing nice and watching more bills get through the legislature.

The reason is frankly tangential to just applying. The reason won't matter, because we know the answer will be no regardless . If you want my serious answer, I would say " due to high violent crime rates in the cities I frequent like Paterson and Newark , the recent scare at the garden state plaza, and my general desire to have the ability to sovereignly protect myself and my loved ones against unwanted violent force" But that flowery rhetoric won't matter, they will reject. We just need that to happen to 5000 other people I think this is part of the problem, it's being so over thought. You can't complain until they say no . Do whatever you can to get them to say no to as many people as possible, and THEN is the time for cerebral debate on the best course of agitation. There are many options Here's another idea - for those concerned about this tarnishing their ability to get more purchase permits- how about meeting with your chief briefly beforehand, and bluntly telling him what You are doing?? " chief x, I just wanted to let you know I'm going to submit my application for concealed carry, knowing full well the political climate in the courts will almost certainly have me rejected. My goal is just to have the state tell me definitively that I can not exercise this privilege. Knowing I have no criminal record and have been honored with permits in the past , would you hold it against me when I apply for purchase permits in the future after I will be forced to disclose that I was denied a carry permit?" Simple! Record the damn conversation while you're at it. No decent human being , never mind he's a statist, would possibly hold it against you. If they refuse to process the application, we collect a list of all the chiefs refusing your application and make a stink about that! All of these things people bringing up as roadblocks , are actually POSITIVE consequences we can spin to our advantage. The more they victimize us, and act like tyrants openly, the worse they look. It's not in their interest to do that

Please look back through the thread, I and others have given many ideas for agitation after the rejections. There are many ways to get to this goal. Just having the denials is an absolutely necessary first step, and eliminates an argument the statists can now use to their favor. The fact is we aren't even asking for permission. They have to say no, before we can say "why not?" If you just sit here stagnant with no one applying, we advance nothing. Anyone who thinks there is something to wait for has a screw loose, honestly. I hate to be that rude but it's true. There is absolutely no reason to wait for anything unless your goal is to keep NJ a carry free state. in that case, by all means, never apply. that's what they want. It's like saying you want to lose 10 pounds, but you need to wait before you decide if you should start running on the treadmill. what are we waiting for? denying 50,000 people their carry application or driving the acceptance rate to 0.05% of applicants is a huge advantage. You will now have civil rights and second amendment groups on your side. You can agitate on a social level with race, class, sex. this has been described many times earlier in this thread. read through

Just applying certainly gets you something, in fact it gets you everything. What we need are thousands of rejections, nothing else. Where ni2as and other groups come in is convincing their members who are willing to to do it. But the rejections are what we need and make a huge difference in skewing the acceptance rate and changing the ability for anyone, from the pantano case lawyers to nj2as' spokespeople, to actually be able to agitate for change If the numbers stay the same, interests groups on their own will be able to do nothing

yes, the serious negative repercussion is continuing to live without ccw rights, which is what you are suffering through right now already. You have literally nothing to lose, because right now you have nothing Those other states would just see your explanation saying "I was rejected purely because my state judge determined I did not have a justifiable need to own a gun, and not due to any criminal record whatsoever" florida and Utah are not fascist bungholes like NJ I would recommend everyone, not just a few people , contact them and every NJ group saying you support doing this application dump. They need to hear from their members what we would like to see transpire. Not everyone thinks this this is a good idea. Be a strong advocate for the cause with the reasoning used throughout this thread They can't deny you you're right to apply. It ceases to be an application if they do so. At that point you record the bureaucrat refusing to process your application and call the state police to tell them the name of the jerk refusing to take your paperwork along with the name of the chief of police from that department. I'm not spending another year waiting for more talk and people without a sack. It's time to demand what we want instead of cowering in fear. Them denying you dropping off the application is what you WANT to happen. That just proves how fascist they really are- get it on tape.. It will only help our argument We all need to start getting pissed and stop feeling sorry for ourselves. This is a BS law and it's time to ante up and do something about it

Newtonian is correct Also, there is the provision of "imminent danger". That is the other line you would have to satisfy, in their eyes

Waiting is dumb. What we are waiting I will never understand. I like the New Years idea. Everyone. Should start prepping their paperwork for the new year

reaching out to the local groups to see if they are willing to coordinate applications in mass numbers I would be curious to hear what reservations they may have, and what their alternative plans would be for succeeding with ccw in NJ

I agree with you. I would guess that the case will likely fail at the state level, and hopefully then gets escalated to the SCOTUS However, changing the statistics beforehand would definitely bolster Nappen's arguments during the case itself. It would make it very clear it is not a right and that the majority of non-criminal citizens who are seeking it are systematically being discriminated against

It all starts with changing the phrase from "we accept 99.9% of the applicants" (therefore there is no issue) to "we unfortunately have to reject 98% of the applicants due to them not having a justifiable need for protection" now they look like tyrants. suddenly, if there is something that is a "right" that 98% of the population can not attain for no reason beyond a judge's discretion, it ceases to be a "right" and it becomes impossible for the politicians to call it that. May Issue is a joke. NJ is NO ISSUE, and this would make that very clear I guarantee, just doing that alone, without any of the mudslinging I've mentioned above, would make a HUGE difference right away in the conversation on the subject. They would never be able to say again 'You DO have the right, just apply for it" it ceases to be a "right" completely

Most people on this forum will probably know about the case, there are a few threads on it if you search from the main page. Basically, a business owner in Manalapan filed for the permit, the local chief signed off, and then the court denied him for not having justifiable need. Simple enough. I know NJ2AS filed an Amicus brief with the court, and they have emailed about it (I'm a member) We should ask the NJ2AS leadership to get on board with this, as they themselves were looking to do this sometime ago. There is no better time. It should be done BEFORE Pantano gets heard in court so the lawyers have even more ammunition for their testimony.