Mr.Stu

Pretty sure I didn't say that.

What is bugging me about these drills is there has been nothing said about how long Eli took to finish the engagement. It was 15 seconds to understand the situation and fire his first shot. I have seen nothing to say the last shot was within that 15 seconds. Was his reaction outstanding? Yes, without a doubt. Was it effective? Also yes, without a doubt. Was it all over in that first 15 seconds? Unknown at this point.

I agree that a person with limitations that can't kneel, for example, can qualify without doing that. The point of my post was that even if you don't make any hits at 25 yards, you can still pass. As someone running quals, I would let you shoot standing and still pass you so long as you demonstrated safe gun handling. If you chose not to shoot the 12 rounds at 25 yards at all, but got hits on all the other stages from 15 yards and in, you would still pass objectively. You would score 48/60 - that's a passing score.

I know several LEO and they all have to qualify with any and all handguns they want to carry, on and off duty. I have personally qualified with a Glock 26. A good friend carries a P365xl off duty and had to qualify with that too. It is not the gun that makes the difference - it's the nut behind the butt. My Glock 26 will easily shoot 4" groups off hand at 25 yards if I do my part. The dept policy for your relative's department may be different. ETA: @Smokin .50 and @Krdshrk were there when I did it.

With the ANJRPC case being GVR'd it will only be a matter of time, but I'm sure Murhpy's lapdog, Callahan, will cling on to the bitter end. Maybe a few town PD's will go with LAPD's lead, but who's going to just drive around that town and never cross the border to the next town?

Just a thought for those that say the HQC1 qualification CoF is too stringent and that nobody should be shooting more than 15 yards in an SD situation...if you miss all 12 shots at 25 yards in HQC1, you can still pass!

While it's true you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, it is also true this is not a new process. We are always told ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because many PD's may have never had to do this much before, it is still a well established law. If they can't figure it out in 60 days, the law clearly states the application is approved unless the applicant agrees to an extension on writing.

Not a bad demo, except it would have been better if he didn't sweep his support hand with the muzzle every time he put the gun back in the holster.

Yeah, right.

So you finally admit that distance is not a factor in claiming self defense? JFCOAB!

All I did was challenge YOUR assertion that a shot more than 15 yards could not be self defense. I gave you an extreme example which was far more than 15 yards, but which was clearly self defense. You went around in circles saying that you hadn't said things that you did indeed say, and when they were quoted back to you, you ignored them. I never said anything about requiring everybody who shot a qualification should do so at any distance. I said repeatedly that I don't believe any qualification should be required. At last something we agree on!

If you're so sure of this, how about you cite a case where self defense was claimed, but that claim failed based purely on the distance he/she was from the person that they shot? That excludes cases where the self defense claim failed because the aggressor was not an imminent threat due to distance.

You really are a hoot! Perhaps you should take some of your own advice and read the statutes yourself. It is not "if at all possible". 2C:3-4 Use of force in self-protection. b. Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force. (2) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm; nor is it justifiable if: (b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that: (i) The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling, unless he was the initial aggressor; Until last month, getting a non-cop, non-RPO permit was all but impossible. Approximately 0.013% of the population of NJ had carry permits. This is so vanishingly small a group that it is about the same as zero. And from this pool of zero people you want me to show you someone that has used their gun at a distance of 25 yards? You're hilarious! ETA: you were the person that introduced the incorrect notion that a shooting beyond 15 yards was not self defense so cut the nonsense about derailing the topic from qualifications

Are you unable to read the quoted text where YOU said Not talking about qualifying at all. You stated that a "legal self defense shoot" was at "15 Y tops."

Cut'n'pasted from the Qualifications thread: I am pretty much set up to run quals. Email me at [email protected] to make a booking. Currently quals will be held at Phillipsburg Pistol Club where, in order to prevent a high volume of quals from preventing the general membership from using the facilities, the range can be booked from 8am-12pm Monday thru Thursday. I need to give them some notice to make the range booking and it needs to fit in with my day job. Right now, I could take a booking for Thursday morning (7/21) but you need to let me know today. Future sessions will available depending on my work schedule. I am also working on getting approval to run quals at EFGA which should make some evenings and weekends possible. It will take 20-30 minutes per person, per gun and I would prefer small groups rather than set up for just 1 person. The CoF will be HQC1 - 60 rounds at a Q target from 1 to 25 yards. You'll need to bring: the gun(s) you intend to carry 60 rounds per gun 2 magazines or a speedloader (there is a mandatory reload on the clock in the CoF) a strong side hip holster (IWB or OWB is fine. No AIWB, SoB or shoulder holsters allowed) a magazine/speedloader pouch is useful but not required eye & ear protection Appropriate outdoor gear (sun hat, rain jacket, etc.) I will be signing the certification based on the shooter scoring a minimum of 80% (48 hits) and observed safe gun handling. Safe gun handling will be assessed based on the well established rules that have been used in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE for years. The fees will be $65 per person for the first gun and $40 for each additional gun during the same session. N.B. When you sign the qualification certificate you will be attesting that you have read the New Jersey Statutes pertaining to your responsibilities and liabilities regarding carrying a handgun, N.J.S.A. 2C:3-1, et seq. These statutes describe the laws pertaining to use of force in NJ. I am not qualified to teach use of force and will not be doing so. This is purely a certificate to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (b). I will include a copy of my certification as an NRA Instructor to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (c).

Except you, that is I never said I thought everybody should be made to qualify at greater distances. I said, twice in fact, that I thought nobody should be made to qualify at all. What I DID say, was that self defense can easily happen at greater distances. Indiana is an extreme example, an outlier even, but "15 Y tops" is not realistic. Just to be absolutely clear: I do not believe that anybody should have to do a test in order to exercise their Constitutionally protected right to carry a firearm for self defense. I also believe exercising a right carries responsibility, one of which is understanding lawful use of force. To suggest that shooting beyond 15 yards is not or cannot be self defense is just plain wrong.

As I stated before, I do not agree with State mandated tests at all. I also do not agree with the notion that self defense encounters only happen within 15 yards. Distance is only a consideration in a deadly force legal defense when determining the imminence of the threat. A guy with a knife at 50 yards is not an imminent threat to you (but may be to someone else so deadly force may be justified in defense of another). A guy with a rifle can absolutely be an imminent threat to you at 50 yards.

Your inference was that a shot greater than 45 feet is not self defense, and now you imply that what the kid in Indiana was "go on the offensive". My mind is boggled that the Indiana situation could be perceived as anything but defensive. The kid was in no way the aggressor.

As much as I disagree with State mandated tests, I also disagree with this mindset. Check out the mall shooting in Indiana this weekend. The good guy engaged the perp at 50 yards. Did he take some risk doing that? Sure. Did he save the day? Abso-frickin-lutely! The bad guy had a rifle. You are not safe from incoming fire that originates outside your "45 feet max" bubble. As a permit holder, you need to know your skills and abilities and be able to decide in a split second if the risk of you missing the bad guy outweighs the certain carnage that the bad guy is inflicting.

I am pretty much set up to run quals. Email me at [email protected] to make a booking. Currently quals will be held at Phillipsburg Pistol Club where, in order to prevent a high volume of quals from preventing the general membership from using the facilities, the range can be booked from 8am-12pm Monday thru Thursday. I need to give them some notice to make the range booking and it needs to fit in with my day job. Right now, I could take a booking for Thursday morning (7/21) but you need to let me know today. Future sessions will available depending on my work schedule. I am also working on getting approval to run quals at EFGA which should make some evenings and weekends possible. It will take 20-30 minutes per person, per gun and I would prefer small groups rather than set up for just 1 person. The CoF will be HQC1 - 60 rounds at a Q target from 1 to 25 yards. You'll need to bring: the gun(s) you intend to carry 60 rounds per gun 2 magazines or a speedloader (there is a mandatory reload on the clock in the CoF) a strong side hip holster (IWB or OWB is fine. No AIWB, SoB or shoulder holsters allowed) a magazine/speedloader pouch is useful but not required eye & ear protection Appropriate outdoor gear (sun hat, rain jacket, etc.) I will be signing the certification based on the shooter scoring a minimum of 80% (48 hits) and observed safe gun handling. Safe gun handling will be assessed based on the well established rules that have been used in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE for years. The fees will be $65 per person for the first gun and $40 for each additional gun during the same session. N.B. When you sign the qualification certificate you will be attesting that you have read the New Jersey Statutes pertaining to your responsibilities and liabilities regarding carrying a handgun, N.J.S.A. 2C:3-1, et seq. These statutes describe the laws pertaining to use of force in NJ. I am not qualified to teach use of force and will not be doing so. This is purely a certificate to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (b). I will include a copy of my certification as an NRA Instructor to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (c).

I have already worked up a form and qualified 3 people. I have already done my own quals with someone else, but if you can't find anyone to reciprocate with, I'm sure we can work something out. p.s I'm not interested in charging the 3-figure sums that the full-service ranges are charging.

The statute says what it says. However, read it all, specifically: 2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns. d. Issuance by Superior Court; fee. If the application has been approved by the chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, the applicant shall forthwith present it to the Superior Court of the county in which the applicant resides, or to the Superior Court in any county where he intends to carry a handgun, in the case of a nonresident or employee of an armored car company. The court shall issue the permit to the applicant if, but only if, it is satisfied that the applicant is a person of good character who is not subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3, that he is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns, and that he has a justifiable need to carry a handgun in accordance with the provisions of subsection c. of this section. The court may at its discretion issue a limited-type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he may carry and where and for what purposes the handguns may be carried. At the time of issuance, the applicant shall pay to the county clerk of the county where the permit was issued a permit fee of $20. The bold part is what they are using to restrict permits to the ones you submit quals for. On the cards that I have seen images of, they list the specific guns on the back of the card.

Correct - I got it wrong, but the Trooper fixed it for me.

Just in case anyone was wondering, I am the Match Director for IDPA here. I'm happy to answer any questions. One thing I particularly like about PPC is that the rules allow you to practice holster work and other drills forward of the firing line (when other members are not using the regular firing line, of course). For safety's sake, you would need to be approved before doing this kind of shooting, but it is far less restrictive than most ranges where you can only stand still in a shooting port. The club web site is here: https://phillipsburgpistolclub.com/

NJSP Washington just called me trying to reach my boss to verify employment. Therefore, I conclude the phone number box on the SP642 should be your employer's phone number, not your own. The Trooper also called my references today. When she spoke to me trying to verify employment, she said things looked OK so far. Apparently, the municipal code on the SP642 is not the ORI number for the PD, but she said she filled it in by hand so should be OK. She has not received anything back from Indentogo yet (I got printed on 6/30) but she said it goes via NJSP Trenton so not to be concerned yet.