HBecwithFn7

Anthony mentioned this on today's GFH podcast. Definitely voting "No."

I think the anti's would attempt to declare that "unconstitutional," given similar "in place" amendments about "poll taxes," etc.... Similar argument as with all this "Voter ID" backlash. I think there should be some kind of voter ID verification at the polling place. DL, or voter reg card, just something simple to say you are who you say you are, and that you are eligible to vote. At my place, they don't make you show ID, but if your signature in the registry book doesn't match your signature from previous voting, it might raise and eyebrow or two. Actually, in my town, the election officials are the same people, year after year. They get to know you, and you, them. In fact, until he retired, one of the guys was a co-worker of mine at my company (at the time).

What's that quote from "To Kill a Mockingbird?" Something about "Nothing to buy and no money to buy it with...."

I have just returned home from my recent FL trip. Had a great time, carried all over the place... had a blast. Passed my MAG-40 class. It was hard and exhausting, but a good kind of exhausting. BTW, loved the I-81 I-77 route down. Yeah, there were a lot of trucks, but in no case did it slow the general traffic down. Everyone moved right along and, for the most part, were courteous to each other... never "Bumper to Bumper' or "Stop & Go," unless there was some kind of accident or construction. And NO fixed ALPR's in MD! :D No mobile one's for that matter either! The speed limits do change, though. They start/end at 65mph at both ends of the MD segment of I-81 for 2-4 miles, but drop to 60mph for the middle 8 miles, as you pass by Haggerstown. Speaking of my new found route of travel (I-78-->I-81-->I-77-->I-26-->I-95), I happened to notice that there is a brand spanking new Cabela's under construction Immediately south of the NC/SC State line in SC on I-77 (just as I-95 has their "South of the Border" tourist attraction ). It is scheduled to open "Spring of 2015" according to the signs. So, if you're down that way or in the Charlotte NC area....

It's most unfortunate, but it would seem your encounter is typical of the hard-core anti. Very much in "denial" about the root causes of crime and violence and what to do about them. Believing that it they waved their "anti-gun" magic wand and eliminated all guns in the US tomorrow, that the crime/violent acts would just go away (and guns not return). And, Believing mistakenly that it's the "gun" that motivates the criminal to commit the violent act. The gun is only a tool. Put in the wrong hands with the wrong motivation, a destructive tool. However, put in the "right" hands with the right motivation... a "safety/security" tool. Your "special friend" admits that some people (military and LE) use them that way. What's wrong about law abiding citizens using them that way also, as well as for hunting and sports? Wha... just because you don't have a cultural attachment to guns means I'm not allowed to have one either? Anyway, there's no getting through to those folks. We just have to focus on the ones we can reach, and try to get to them before the anti's do.

Did you sense that it was his own personal view? Could that have been your boss etc.just "toeing the company line" for the security of the plant/building?

I would check with your local PD, but my understanding is that each time you apply (i.e. submit an sts-033), you must also submit an sp-066 as well as do the SB212A on-line (or by hard copy if your PD still requires that). What your local PD does with it, I'm not sure. But I could imagine them getting a new Criminal history done each time, as the history might have changed since the last time it was done, even if only a short interval (i.e. a month or so)...

That's certainly part of it. But there are multi-facets to the anti-gun culture, just as there are for the pro side, and the "neutral"side. The two most prominent that I can think of on the "actively anti" side are: 1) Those who seriously (and, prehaps, "blindly") believe that restrictions on guns will stop the criminals from committing crimes (or want the "sheeples" to believe that and support them). Mostly because they don't have any effective solutions for the "root causes of crime..." Poverty, mental health issues, increasing population vs. scarcity of natural and financial resouces, or the potential to make more money doing crime, than doing regular honest work. It's a lot easier to say "gun controls saves lives..." But they never bother to think about how many lives it could *cost*... I certainly think about "those children..." As bitter a pill it is for the antis to swallow,, Wayne LaPierre was right... "The only thing that stops a BG with a gun, is a GG with a gun." 2) Those who are agents of or represent the "govt." and consider themselves the only "GG's" around... and fear that law abiding citizens with access to guns will give them opportunities to "resist" or "overthrow" that very govt. (e.g. "Ruby Ridge," and/or "Clive Bundy")... Honestly, at times, I tend to believe this to be the true underlying agenda of the anti-gun movement from the govt. perspective... not so much reduction in violent crime...

Said administrative "law" having its foundation/authority within the NJ Statutes.... (NJSA 52:14 F et. seq.)....

I hear ya. My dearly departed Aunt & Uncle lived in Skillman.... but just off of Province Line Rd. They'd freak if they knew I owned "real" guns...

I recall, one evening (probably shortly after Sandy Hook), I was in an evening "business networking" meeting (where each attendee gets up and does a 90sec. "elevator pitch" about their business or their "community support" projects). One lady got up and started her pitch, and for whatever reasons I don't know, the the discussion turned toward the need for "more gun control." Apparently, either she didn't "get the memo..." (i.e. no discussion of "religion, sex, or politics" at those networking meetings), or she didn't care. On, she went. Within about 10-15 seconds, one of the more vocal pro-gun people attending (it wasn't me ) began to "tear her a new one.." And it got heated quickly! It was maybe another 20 seconds before the moderator realized what was happening and cut both of them off, reminding them (and us) that these topics are verboten at these meetings, for a reason. To quote Hyman Roth in Godfather II, "It had nothing to do with business!" Point being, I have a *whole lot* of work to do....

Agreed. I applied for 2 P2Ps when I did the initial FID. My town is very small also. And that's actually a good thing where I live, as the officer in charge (more than likely the CLEO him/herself) will be doing the investigation (maybe with a little admin. help). That might actually make things go faster, if the CLEO is also pro-2A.

"Regulation," to be more precise. Statutory law provides for various State agencies, etc. to issue "rules and regulations" and impose penalties for violating them, similar to statutes. They have the same practical effect of a "statute," (perhaps with less severe penalties)...they just weren't formally adopted as one by the legislature and/or signed into law by the gov. Where the NJSA is the body of all "Statutes" and Statutory law in NJ, the NJAC is the body of rules and regulations. To analogize, in the Federal govt, the USC (United States Code) is the body of all Federal Law (Statutes), and the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is the regulatory body.

Precisely! I live in a 6-unit block townhouse building. Of my other 5 neighbors, two have "single digit" children who would be just perfect to mentor. Unfortunately, one of those other neighbors is the block's "busy body" and a die hard liberal/anti. I can't risk "outing" myself to the other neighbors as he'd surely find out and want to cause me trouble. If they ever pass any of that Calif. style "psychiatric tattling on your neighbors...." BS here, I would not put it past him to be first in line to come after me or anyone he knows to be an owner. So, I sit and await the appropriate opportunity. In general, I also stay "low profile" for people I don't know to be owners. Most of my business clients and associates are like this. Many are also strong anti, and wouldn't be my clients if they knew I was an owner/pro-2A. I think maybe only my business lawyer and one additional networking partner knows (in fact, he was one of my references). Half of my family is strong liberal/anti. The other half is not. They know all about me. In fact, my sister has entrusted me to mentor her two children (she is NJ Natl. Guard but has not interest in training them). As stated, it's all about waiting for the right opportunity and making the right approach. Precisely, again! Definitely "need to know." And very few are "read in" to this SAP Trust me. I want to come out of the closet. But as long as I live in the PRNJ, I have to be extremely careful. In the past 3 weeks I've been in FL, I've felt so much more at ease. I've CC'ed all over the place. And now, just as I've really started to get comfortable, I have to return to the PRNJ Still, there is hope. I hope I can begin to mentor at least one of my neighbors' kids. And I hope I can find those "on the bubble" and get them over to the "pro-2A" side.

For the "opportunity" to travel if need be (and the reciprocity). That said, I do spend a lot of time in FL, and I may be spending a lot more. So having the FL permit is an excellent thing.

If you live in a town serviced by a local PD, it would be someone in the local PD handling the investigation and referring things to the FIU of the NJSP (or the County Adjustor's office for the sp-066) when needed. If your references are being checked, it would be the local PD doing that. If your town doesn't have a local PD, it would be the closest NJSP barracks that services your town. Ultimately, the CLEO of your town will have to sign the docs (or whomever does it at the NJSP barracks if you don't have a local PD).

It comes down to this... What's the higher priority? Getting the gun in the house, or standing up to the PD to exercise your rights? Apparently, only one of the two will happen. And one seems to be more costly. A choice must be made. A 3rd option of course is to eliminate the problem by moving away, but that's a drastic measure and far more costly. But it might be worth it if there's more to move for than just ease in obtaining permits.

This has always bothered me. But apparently, it's important to them. After all, your occupation/employer is printed on the FID and P2P documents themselves. ???

It's still the same background check, it's just done electronically instead of by hard copy paperwork, and the results are reported back to the local PD electronically.

First, I'd go on the websites of the states that interest you for CCW and determine their requirements for a non-resident permit. Here's Florida's site - Florida Dept. of Agriculture and Consumer Services - Licensing Division Here's Utah - State of Utah - Dept. of Public Safety - Concealed Carry And Arizona - Arizona Dept. of Public Safety - Concealed Carry permit. All three will require that you show proof of traininig in concealed carry. So you would have to find a course that satisfies their requirements. After that, you fill out the applications, take passport sized photos where required, get fingerprinted (all states require that for FBI inquiries, etc.), get the applications notarized, include the payment for the applications (FL is $112 for 7 years non-res, $51.00 aprox. for 5 years Utah Non-Res, etc, etc.).. AZ is also 5 years. Submit all of that to the respective state agencies, and wait. Usually about 60-90 days. The thing is, you have to get both the forms, and especially the FBI Fingerprint forms absolutely 100% correct, or they will ding you and it will be delayed. The CCW course you take will, hopefully, cover how to fill out the forms correctly. The "shootersontarget.com" site (at Quinton Sportsmen's club) goes into precise detail on how to fill out all the forms, and makes sure you have the FBI fingerprint cards just right (there's a professional finger printer there to do the work). There is also a Notary Public there to take care of notarizing the forms, and also take any required photos (AZ does not require photos, but does require two finger print cards - the other states I mentioned only require one). The course fee you pay shootersontarget.com covers all of the above pre-processing. It doesn't cover the actual fees to the state for the permits themselves. You have to include them in the application packet. Once you send them in, watch for the checks to clear or the credit card to be charged. At which point, figure 60-90 days thereafter. In fact, for Florida, you can track it on line at the above website. Save the "T" number that is part of your application. That's your ID number in the system. Hope this helps... Regards, HB

Sadly, 26 is the critical question. IMHO, it's the one that gives the greatest discretion for "denying" people if that's the PD's general mindset and intent.

Well call them, and maybe they'll make an exception for you. But if it still works like I recall, they do the photos and fingerprints in "stages" while the lectures are going on, so you might have to be there all day. May not be your best option then....

I took the "Multi-State CCW class" from the Quinton Sportsmen's Club, near Salem, NJ. The next class is scheduled for Sat,11/8. Based on the fee you pay, you can get up to 4 states: FL, UT, AZ, and VA. I did all but VA (since VA non-res is $100.00 for 5 years and the other permits covered me in VA anyway). Note that the fee you pay for the class does *not* cover the application fees of the states themselves. But it does cover photos, fingerprint cards and Notary public fees, as well as the training, and all of that is done right on site at the class, for each state you wish to do. For FL, it also includes a live fire portion (BYO gun and ammo).

The greater concern, I think is that those other documents (reg & insurance) expire more frequently than the DL and need to be replaced more frequently. My insurance cert. expires every 6 months. My Reg, every 1 year. MY DL, every 4 years. You would need to have exp. dates also encoded on the DL as well for LEO verification during a stop. I would think the only way to do that would be, perhaps to have an electronic DL with a strip that can be updated. so the LEO can read the information with a strip reader or something. That, and the reg/insurance info is more volatile for other reasons... i.e. if you buy a new car, etc. etc. etc.

I think what matters more is what the CLEO of his town (or the NJSP barracks) thinks, since they'll be the ones making the approve/deny decision. They're the one's conducting the investigation. So it's up to them as to how far they proceed in veting things and how they interpret them. The question (26) is broad and vague enough to allow said CLEO a lot of discretion. OP: I'd search for info. on the history of FID permit grants in your town. How long they take... do they require special documents other than the standard NJ state forms (sts-033 and sp-066) + SB212A. Would you be willing to tell us what town you live in?