I've read the statue over and over.  I'm not bad with words but one part confuses me.   On a quick read through, I thought it meant that you can carry any gun as long as you own the gun but on the 10th read, it seems to say something else.

Quote

NJS 2C:58-4(a) "One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit."

The last part confuses me:  "the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual legal holder of the permit".   WHICH IS NOT:  the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual legal owner of the gun.  Holder of permit...not owner of gun.

It reads to me that the permit is only valid for the person who owns the permit and says nothing at all about who owns the gun.  But it seems so obvious that somebody else can't use your permit that they wouldn't have put that in  the law.   I need a grammar expert who remembers how to diagram sentences to clear this up for me.

I read it as you can't loan your gun and permit to a buddy.........DUH! This is such a stupid state!

every nj gun law is purposefully ambiguous so they can apply it as needed. 

My take on this is you can carry any handgun you legally own.  IANAL but this is how I read this.

6 hours ago, GRIZ said:

My take on this is you can carry any handgun you legally own.  IANAL but this is how I read this.

My take as well EXCEPT for the bit that follows, which is:

d. Issuance by Superior Court; fee. If the application has been approved by the chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, the applicant shall forthwith present it to the Superior Court of the county in which the applicant resides, or to the Superior Court in any county where he intends to carry a handgun, in the case of a nonresident or employee of an armored car company. The court shall issue the permit to the applicant if, but only if, it is satisfied that the applicant is a person of good character who is not subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3, that he is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns, and that he has a justifiable need to carry a handgun in accordance with the provisions of subsection c. of this section. The court may at its discretion issue a limited-type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he may carry and where and for what purposes the handguns may be carried. At the time of issuance, the applicant shall pay to the county clerk of the county where the permit was issued a permit fee of $20.

And it's essentially luck whether it's restricted or not.

Agreed. It needs to be challenged in court.

43 minutes ago, Xtors said:

My take as well EXCEPT for the bit that follows, which is:

d. Issuance by Superior Court; fee. If the application has been approved by the chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, the applicant shall forthwith present it to the Superior Court of the county in which the applicant resides, or to the Superior Court in any county where he intends to carry a handgun, in the case of a nonresident or employee of an armored car company. The court shall issue the permit to the applicant if, but only if, it is satisfied that the applicant is a person of good character who is not subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3, that he is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns, and that he has a justifiable need to carry a handgun in accordance with the provisions of subsection c. of this section. The court may at its discretion issue a limited-type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he may carry and where and for what purposes the handguns may be carried. At the time of issuance, the applicant shall pay to the county clerk of the county where the permit was issued a permit fee of $20.

That's where it gets ambiguous in my opinion.  Permit are being issued with "none" checked for restrictions yet listing the qualified handguns.  So while the administrative code says you carry what you qual with, the statute says any handgun can be carried and since they aren't actually "restricting" the permit the qualified handgun being listed doesn't matter.  I just know I don't want to be the one who gets hauled into court to have that fight.

Clear as mud, probably because "they" never saw this restored freedom coming.

This is exactly it. Just like Evan said a few podcast episodes ago. In their pompousness they made the laws good for anyone who does obtain a carry permit, because they thought no one ever would. 

30 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

Clear as mud, probably because "they" never saw this restored freedom coming.

 

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As someone who has a NJ ccp, you can only carry what you're qualified with. My experience when doing my twice annual qual has been unchanged in 10 years. You're supposed to shoot with and qualify with each gun in your possession that you intend to carry. After you pass qual, the range instructor, who must be a certified NJ firearms instructor, writes in the make/model/serial # and caliber of that gun on the qual form. You cannot qual with one, then go home and start rotating the 10 others you have onto your hip. There are only two slots on the form. I'll admit I've never asked if the two slots means a two gun limit or if they'll qual you with as many as you want and write them in somewhere.

4 hours ago, tjs3023 said:

As someone who has a NJ ccp, you can only carry what you're qualified with. My experience when doing my twice annual qual has been unchanged in 10 years. You're supposed to shoot with and qualify with each gun in your possession that you intend to carry. After you pass qual, the range instructor, who must be a certified NJ firearms instructor, writes in the make/model/serial # and caliber of that gun on the qual form. You cannot qual with one, then go home and start rotating the 10 others you have onto your hip. There are only two slots on the form. I'll admit I've never asked if the two slots means a two gun limit or if they'll qual you with as many as you want and write them in somewhere.

Since you qualify twice annually, I am assuming you have an RPO permit.  Governed by a completely different set of NJ laws with some federal laws thrown in.  They're two different kinds of carry permits.

Edited August 20, 20224 yr by SJ Guns

I dont find this muddy at all..

 

One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder

Pretty straightforward right there....

 The permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit.

The permit to carry a handgun, shall apply only to a handgun that you have ownership of, as the permit holder and owner of said handgun.

 

Again...the restrictions portion was put in there to apply to a security guard job where the restriction was you could only carry while working.  That is changed now.  There are no more restrictions.  It clearly says "One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder".   I am not an english major but it says what it says.

Part of carrying is being prepared and making the good decisions. There is what is right and there is real life. In a perfect world they should coincide. Many defense attorneys agree, if the gun you used is the one you qualified with it is one less thing for the prosecutor to use against you. 

I get it, "It shouldnt matter! There is nothing in the law that says I can't use another gun" and I wholeheartedly agree. But in the spirit of covering your bases and looking out for all angles of attack while going about your life, the same could be said about legally, are you making the prosecutors job easier or harder to convince a jury (that is ignorant of firearms) of your guilt? If you want to be that test case, no one is stopping you, and you could walk away unscathed, if its worth the risk to you, then live your life, carry how you like. 

So for me, I will only carry what I qualified with. Because after seeing the Rittenhouse trial and seeing the bullshit the prosecutor will fling at you, itll be one less thing to worry about. It also helps I qualified with three guns, so I have options, lol

9 hours ago, EngineerJet said:

Part of carrying is being prepared and making the good decisions. There is what is right and there is real life. In a perfect world they should coincide. Many defense attorneys agree, if the gun you used is the one you qualified with it is one less thing for the prosecutor to use against you. 

I get it, "It shouldnt matter! There is nothing in the law that says I can't use another gun" and I wholeheartedly agree. But in the spirit of covering your bases and looking out for all angles of attack while going about your life, the same could be said about legally, are you making the prosecutors job easier or harder to convince a jury (that is ignorant of firearms) of your guilt? If you want to be that test case, no one is stopping you, and you could walk away unscathed, if its worth the risk to you, then live your life, carry how you like. 

So for me, I will only carry what I qualified with. Because after seeing the Rittenhouse trial and seeing the bullshit the prosecutor will fling at you, itll be one less thing to worry about. It also helps I qualified with three guns, so I have options, lol

It's true, but then again if God forbid you ever had to use your gun, if you qualified with it or not is going to be the least of your worries. It amazes me that no one is being flagged as insane for wanting to carry in this terrible state to begin with. J/k. 

2 minutes ago, Lostboy said:

It's true, but then again if God forbid you ever had to use your gun, if you qualified with it or not is going to be the least of your worries. It amazes me that no one is being flagged as insane for wanting to carry in this terrible state to begin with. J/k. 

I get what youre saying. It may be the least of your concerns...or it might not be. We will never be in full control of the circumstances of defending our lives. But when it comes to qualifications, that is one thing that you DO have control over. And consider you will be judged by a jury of likely ignorant peers. All it might take is for the prosecutor to drill the point "The undisputed facts are that the defendant shot and killed a man with a gun he did not qualify with". Sure to you and me it sounds silly but it could be the one thing that convinces a juror. So again, for me, why do I want to help the prosecutor with "this will be the least of my worries" mentality?

So go qualify with any and all pistols you decide to carry, and keep a copy of the certification letters. Just because they're not listed on your permit doesn't mean you never qualified with them.

25 minutes ago, Lostboy said:

It's true, but then again if God forbid you ever had to use your gun, if you qualified with it or not is going to be the least of your worries. It amazes me that no one is being flagged as insane for wanting to carry in this terrible state to begin with. J/k. 

This is not a joke....you have to understand that a jury of your peers here, is not the same as others.

Do you have faith that a jury in the state of NJ that is vehemently anti gun and liberal, will give you the same consideration - as say another state that has a deep firearms tradition?

Think about that, you want some soccer mom karen from Bergenfield, or some ken from princeton deciding your fate?

To them you are guilty as the day as long, just for exercising your right....

 

 

All these things need to be thought about...before your start that gun on for the day.....because if you draw it your life IS changed forever.    Again it's NJ....

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9 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

This is not a joke....you have to understand that a jury of your peers here, is not the same as others.

Do you have faith that a jury in the state of NJ that is vehemently anti gun and liberal, will give you the same consideration - as say another state that has a deep firearms tradition?

Think about that, you want some soccer mom karen from Bergenfield, or some ken from princeton deciding your fate?

To them you are guilty as the day as long, just for exercising your right....

 

 

All these things need to be thought about...before your start that gun on for the day.....because if you draw it your life IS changed forever.    Again it's NJ....

But that's exactly my point. We often talk about people defending their family inside of their own home, imagine the same outside of the home... It's not going to end well regardless but it's a risk I'm willing to take to keep myself and others safe. 

 

4 minutes ago, Lostboy said:

But that's exactly my point. We often talk about people defending their family inside of their own home, imagine the same outside of the home... It's not going to end well regardless but it's a risk I'm willing to take to keep myself and others safe. 

 

Define others?  Just curious...

31 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

So go qualify with any and all pistols you decide to carry, and keep a copy of the certification letters. Just because they're not listed on your permit doesn't mean you never qualified with them

That's why I qualified with the top 3 guns I shoot the most, lol

10 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Define others?  Just curious...

My wife, kids, other immediate family or friends that I'm in the company of. Really though if you're in a public place like a mall food court and you have to diffuse a situation you're saving a lot of people that you may not even know, right? We just saw this go down in Indiana. 

1 hour ago, samiam said:

Maybe someone who is a U.S. Law Shield member could ask for their advice on carrying a handgun that is unlisted on a permit that does specify a different one? The direction and stength of their advice might cause me to consider changing my opinion. 

Gonna give them a shout tomorrow and see what they say about this.. will report back

3 hours ago, Lostboy said:

My wife, kids, other immediate family or friends that I'm in the company of. Really though if you're in a public place like a mall food court and you have to diffuse a situation you're saving a lot of people that you may not even know, right? We just saw this go down in Indiana. 

What went down in Indiana went perfectly for the good guy.  What if one of his shots hit Mary Jones pushing her baby carriage?

7 hours ago, Lostboy said:

My wife, kids, other immediate family or friends that I'm in the company of. Really though if you're in a public place like a mall food court and you have to diffuse a situation you're saving a lot of people that you may not even know, right? We just saw this go down in Indiana. 

I see @GRIZ already commented, but this is my thought as well, hence my question.

The Police have no duty to protect you personally, and you have even less of a duty to do so, to protect others.

This is a very serious question and I do not know the answer.  

Part of me does not love my fellow man enough to get involved in something that does not directly affect me or my family....

However, you should ask yourself what you would do and are willing to rosk as well as l war game all these scenarios in your mind.

8 hours ago, GRIZ said:

What went down in Indiana went perfectly for the good guy.  What if one of his shots hit Mary Jones pushing her baby carriage?

 

3 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

I see @GRIZ already commented, but this is my thought as well, hence my question.

The Police have no duty to protect you personally, and you have even less of a duty to do so, to protect others.

This is a very serious question and I do not know the answer.  

Part of me does not love my fellow man enough to get involved in something that does not directly affect me or my family....

However, you should ask yourself what you would do and are willing to rosk as well as l war game all these scenarios in your mind.

This is why anyone taking this seriously should be shooting as much as possible. I'm shooting twice a week and feel it isn't enough. If a guy walks into a food court trying to tag as many people as possible, obviously your own life is at danger. Unless you're planning on dodging random bullets matrix style? You can't just stand there like a moron while you think about if you're good enough to not hit Marysue. Regardless, you need to ask yourself if one life is worth the risk to save countless others. I don't know if I could live with myself afterwards, but I would have to try. If you're not willing to be the good guy with the gun, why bother with the permit at all?

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