And I will say it again and again....there is NO crime that exists that will ever be stopped. There will ALWAYS be someone out there who will figure out a way around the "system" in order to commit some crime. So given your theory, let's just abandon all forms of law enforcement because they will never completely solve any crimes. It is an extreme theory, and that is exactly what it leads to....an extreme end. I am NOT saying that EVERYTHING needs to be regulated. I am simply saying that there is a fine line (no heroin pun intended) between what needs to be enforced, and what doesn't. And I believe that hard drugs such as heroin, crack, meth, and others are on the side that needs to be enforced.

Legalizing drugs? Don't think it's gonna happen. They can't even legalize prostitution, yet porn is legal!

Also, there's so many other legal drugs that is abused, legalizing the controlled ones (Schedule I - no medicinal use or value) might not do much.

 

 

of course prostitution is not legal.. it is just more controlling hypocrisy.. I do not personally want to hire a stripper.. but if a consenting adult wants to pay another adult to have sex with them.. how is it just for the government to interfere.. it really has nothing to do with them.. kind of makes you wonder where we would end up if the government actually focused that all that energy on important things.. like the economy.. border security.. etc..

And I will say it again and again....there is NO crime that exists that will ever be stopped. There will ALWAYS be someone out there who will figure out a way around the "system" in order to commit some crime. So given your theory, let's just abandon all forms of law enforcement because they will never completely solve any crimes. It is an extreme theory, and that is exactly what it leads to....an extreme end. I am NOT saying that EVERYTHING needs to be regulated. I am simply saying that there is a fine line (no heroin pun intended) between what needs to be enforced, and what doesn't. And I believe that hard drugs such as heroin, crack, meth, and others are on the side that needs to be enforced.

no...

 

burglary is wrong because the criminal deprives you of things that you have worked hard to purchase....

drunk driving is wrong because it puts others at risk on the public road...

rape is wrong because you are forcing another individual to do something against their will..

 

these are criminal matters..

 

drug USE is a social problem.. not a criminal matter...

 

you sit in your house all day drinking yourself into a coma.. NOT my problem.. NOT the governments problem..

you sit in the house high on cocaine.. NOT my problem.. NOT the governments problem.....

 

we will simply agree to disagree..

but that is the issue I have with the whole thing..

found this interesting..

 

Annual Death Causes In Order..

 

Tobacco 435,000

Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000

Alcohol 85,000

Microbial Agents 75,000

Toxic Agents 55,000

Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347

Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000

Suicide 30,622

Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000

Homicide 20,308

Sexual Behaviors 20,000

All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,0001

Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600

Marijuana 07

 

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

But again.....there is not a high percentage of people who drink (both social drinkers and alcoholics) who will actually steal and harm others to feed their addiction. The percentage of those who partake in other illegal activity that harms others is much higher among those who are addicted to hard drugs. When they arrest people who are on heroin, they don't just arrest someone who sits on the couch and shoots up all day. They are arresting someone who is likely stealing from their family/friends/complete strangers to fund their habit, possibly participating in a gang which will eventually lead to them harming someone else. I personally wouldn't give a rats a** if they sat at home shooting heroin all day. But the fact is that they NORMALLY don't just sit around and do that, they NORMALLY participate in other crimes that do harm other people.

But again.....there is not a high percentage of people who drink (both social drinkers and alcoholics) who will actually steal and harm others to feed their addiction. The percentage of those who partake in other illegal activity that harms others is much higher among those who are addicted to hard drugs. When they arrest people who are on heroin, they don't just arrest someone who sits on the couch and shoots up all day. They are arresting someone who is likely stealing from their family/friends/complete strangers to fund their habit, possibly participating in a gang which will eventually lead to them harming someone else. I personally wouldn't give a rats a** if they sat at home shooting heroin all day. But the fact is that they NORMALLY don't just sit around and do that, they NORMALLY participate in other crimes that do harm other people.

 

 

ok different approach..

 

someone steals your car to get drug money..

someone steals your car to get food money...

someone steals your car to drive around on the town...

someone steals your car to go buy a big mack..

 

do you really care why they stole your car? punish the person for stealing the car.. and stay out of their personal lives (drug problem)

In case you didn't know, I drive a Honda. Vtech is so fast that my car moves itself when someone tries to steal it.

 

My point is.....an addiction to heroin is going to push someone to steal my car much more than a craving for a big mac.

 

Do you also think that prostitution should be legalized?

Do you also think that prostitution should be legalized?

I do. Not that I'll ever go to one, but if someone is offering sex for money and someone else is willing to pay, why is it any of the government's business?

The problem with libertarian views on drugs, prostitution, and "anything that has no effect on me" laws is it comes to the point for anyone to agree lines need to be drawn and laws made. If a 30 year old wants to have sex with a consenting 15 year old should the government get involved. If homeboy gets out of prison after serving 14 years on his life sentence he got for killing 3 people in a driveby he needs to own whatever weapons he wants to protect himself. After all he should have 2A rights. If one drug dealer kills another drug dealer maybe he shouldn't be charged as he performed a public service?

 

many people who get involved in street level dealing are jobless.. poor.. and in some cases inner city.. there is poverty... the sale of crack is seen as an instant fix for the financial problems.. so it is a never ending cycle..

 

I have heard these arguments for over 40 years. I haven't been insulated from the drug thing and spent over 30 years as an LEO having been involved in enforcing drug laws on all levels.

 

People get involved in the drug business because they want to make money. many have no ambition but to make money the easy way. I have never met any street dealer who was dealing to save for tutition to Harvard. I have also seen people with advanced degrees get involved in the drug business because it was easier to make big money. People in the drug business want to make a lot of money without having to work too hard.

 

This drug raid in Point Pleasant were dealers not street users. A pound and a half of grass exceeds personal use. States that have decriminalized marijuana still arrest dealers.

 

I don't care what my stance gives anti-gun people in the way of arguments... my stance is made in logic not in making friends or winning elections..

 

This is precisely why Libertarians are not a significant political faction. We are logical and everyone else is wrong. Libertarians are great thinkers and everyone else is stupid. I have seen this for over 40 years. You need to make a convincing argument to win people over to your side of anything.

 

Your stats on causes of death seem biased. That hooker who died from AIDS she contracted while supporting her drug habit doesn't have illicit drug activity as cause of death on her death certificate. If I'm tripping on LSD, get in a mv accident, get my head cut off, my certificate says decapitation. You can make links like this in virtually every category. You also need to consider the percentage of the population engaged in the activities listed.

 

You are all missing the point here guys. This dude had a BB GUN. And it was FULLY LOADED.

 

Yes...the point... BB gun = firearm in NJ, firearm + some specified (drug) offense in NJ = mandatory sentence. The state legislature removed mandatory sentencing for many drug offenses earlier this year. If the NJSP want these people to give someone else up they need something to bargain with.

The problem with libertarian views on drugs, prostitution, and "anything that has no effect on me" laws is it comes to the point for anyone to agree lines need to be drawn and laws made.

But there already are lines drawn and laws for some of the current problems. There are laws on legal age of consent, firearms laws regarding people with a criminal history, and laws on murder.

 

You want to have sex with a consenting minor? Go to a state where the age of consent is the age you're looking for. If you're looking for someone younger, tough luck. Try your luck in Thailand.

You want to own guns? Don't do anything stupid that would land you in jail where you'll get a criminal record.

You're a drug dealer and kill another dealer? You're going to jail for murder, not because of drug dealing.

 

I think some of the laws written are just common sense laws, but the problem is some people have no common sense. The politicians try to legislate common sense, so they end up making criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens.

+15 for GRIZ, I hope he gets it.

 

Do I think that prostitution is bad? In and of itself....no. But just like the person who shoots heroin, other crimes are likely to happen when engaged in prostitution. If both parties consent to the sex, and that is ALL they do.....I don't give a crap. But there are MANY other things that come along with prostitution. It also makes the town look bad with trashy girls on the corner......and poor appearances attract poor behavior. THAT is the cycle we should be worried about. It's not just the hooker standing on the street. The hooker standing on the street in a certain town attracts the scum to that town. That scum that is looking to pay for sex is more likely to commit other crimes as well.

The problem with libertarian views on drugs, prostitution, and "anything that has no effect on me" laws is it comes to the point for anyone to agree lines need to be drawn and laws made. If a 30 year old wants to have sex with a consenting 15 year old should the government get involved.

yes.. because that person is a minor... laws are applied differently to minors..

 

If homeboy gets out of prison after serving 14 years on his life sentence he got for killing 3 people in a driveby he needs to own whatever weapons he wants to protect himself. After all he should have 2A rights. If one drug dealer kills another drug dealer maybe he shouldn't be charged as he performed a public service?

I am not sure what you mean here..

 

I have heard these arguments for over 40 years. I haven't been insulated from the drug thing and spent over 30 years as an LEO having been involved in enforcing drug laws on all levels.

 

People get involved in the drug business because they want to make money. many have no ambition but to make money the easy way. I have never met any street dealer who was dealing to save for tutition to Harvard. I have also seen people with advanced degrees get involved in the drug business because it was easier to make big money. People in the drug business want to make a lot of money without having to work too hard.

I agree... this is exactly why.. no matter how many people you arrest.. there will be one standing right behind him to fill the void.. it is quite literally an endless cycle..

 

This drug raid in Point Pleasant were dealers not street users. A pound and a half of grass exceeds personal use. States that have decriminalized marijuana still arrest dealers.

 

and as I conceded to earlier in this discussion.. if you want to still shut down "meth labs" and things like that because they are a public nonsense I can see that.. but to arrest for simple possession is ridiculous... this discussion has obviously passed the point of focusing just on the arrest some time ago..

 

 

This is precisely why Libertarians are not a significant political faction. We are logical and everyone else is wrong. Libertarians are great thinkers and everyone else is stupid. I have seen this for over 40 years. You need to make a convincing argument to win people over to your side of anything.

 

I never once said anyone else was stupid.. please.. I am open to any discussion.. but don't put words in my mouth.. I respect that we disagree.. and you are more than welcome to your opinion.. but if you even just break it down to marijuana.. it is ABSURD that marijuana is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol are legal.. at the very least we should be able to agree that the decriminalization of marijuana is logical.. you want to look at heroin.. cocaine.. etc.. and leave them as controlled substances because they are just so dangerous.. while I may not agree I can totally understand where you are coming from.. but marijuana? how much money do we waste locking people up for pot.. and exactly how many people have died from abusing marijuana? ever? in the history of man? I am pretty confident the number is zero.. but even if I go out on a limb and say 100.. which its not... more people likely died in car accidents last week....

 

 

Your stats on causes of death seem biased. That hooker who died from AIDS she contracted while supporting her drug habit doesn't have illicit drug activity as cause of death on her death certificate. If I'm tripping on LSD, get in a mv accident, get my head cut off, my certificate says decapitation. You can make links like this in virtually every category. You also need to consider the percentage of the population engaged in the activities listed.

 

the statistics are bias.. all statistics are.. and I agree with your point... but a hooker who dies from aids is a self solving problem.. one that does not need government attention...

 

 

Yes...the point... BB gun = firearm in NJ, firearm + some specified (drug) offense in NJ = mandatory sentence. The state legislature removed mandatory sentencing for many drug offenses earlier this year. If the NJSP want these people to give someone else up they need something to bargain with.

 

I may be the minority here.. but I don't see any issue with charging people who commit other crimes while using a BB gun with additional weapons charges.. like if you rob a gas station with a BB gun.. I see no issue with weapons charges...

 

but I think the point for me is.. the excessive criminalization of something as benign as marijuana to me.. is a waste of time and money.. at the end of the day you took some pot off the street... who cares... what was accomplished? is some high school kid safer now because he is not going to be exposed to the horrific drug of marijuana..

I agree... this is exactly why.. no matter how many people you arrest.. there will be one standing right behind him to fill the void.. it is quite literally an endless cycle..

I have said it several times now....there is NO crime that can be completely controlled. Does that mean that we should completely abandon law enforcement altogether?

 

but if you even just break it down to marijuana.. it is ABSURD that marijuana is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol are legal.. at the very least we should be able to agree that the decriminalization of marijuana is logical.. you want to look at heroin.. cocaine.. etc.. and leave them as controlled substances because they are just so dangerous.. while I may not agree I can totally understand where you are coming from.. but marijuana? how much money do we waste locking people up for pot.. and exactly how many people have died from abusing marijuana? ever? in the history of man? I am pretty confident the number is zero.. but even if I go out on a limb and say 100..

I could see myself supporting the legalization of marijuana.....IF the right system came along to coincide with it. And the lethality of marijuana in and of itself is pretty small, but mixed with alcohol it can actually be pretty dangerous. I am not saying that it should not be legalized because of this, simply stating some information. And I am not focusing my argument on weed, I am focusing on hard drugs.

I have said it several times now....there is NO crime that can be completely controlled. Does that mean that we should completely abandon law enforcement altogether?

 

I have answered your question several times.. but I will try one more time..

 

NO we should not just ignore unstoppable crime.. but last time I checked there was still burglary, rape, stabbings, shootings, illegal immigration, terrorism.. etc.. and of course.. drug possession..

 

so for me.. given the option of devoting 10 cops to busting people with drugs... I would rather take those 10 cops and focus them on violent crime... crime that actually impacts others... as I have said several times.. drug addiction is a social medical problem.. not a criminal one.. if the addict acts out.. and commits a crime.. then YES they should definitely be locked up.. but having pot for example be illegal is irrelevant to me... pot does not have to be illegal to bust someone for assault.. shoplifting.. burglary.. etc..

 

you are not going to stop ANY crimes forever... people do commit crimes.. but I just see focusing a giant "war" on drugs.. when we can't even secure our borders (for example) as completely stupid...

 

I could see myself supporting the legalization of marijuana.....IF the right system came along to coincide with it. And the lethality of marijuana in and of itself is pretty small, but mixed with alcohol it can actually be pretty dangerous. I am not saying that it should not be legalized because of this, simply stating some information. And I am not focusing my argument on weed, I am focusing on hard drugs.

 

it is ironic that you have to take the effects of an illegal drug.. and reference it with combining it with a legal drug.. to net a "dangerous" situation... that alone should tell us something...

 

so for me.. given the option of devoting 10 cops to busting people with drugs... I would rather take those 10 cops and focus them on violent crime... crime that actually impacts others... as I have said several times.. drug addiction is a social medical problem.. not a criminal one..

The problem with focusing all of our attention on violent crime that has already happened and victimized someone is that it doesn't stop that crime from happening.....it just helps become more efficient at catching the person who committed the crime. And given the fact that many of the violent crimes that exist are committed by someone who is known to the victim, the evidence and knowledge is already there. However, if we take somebody off the street who is on hard drugs, and has a higher possibility to commit a violent crime down the road.....how is that not worth it?

it is ironic that you have to take the effects of an illegal drug.. and reference it with combining it with a legal drug.. to net a "dangerous" situation... that alone should tell us something...

Yes....but this is only referring to harm on the user. Weed does inhibit someones decision making and brain function, making it easier for the user to harm other people if they do anything such as driving. So we take someone who uses weed off the streets....they no longer drive....and in 3 months they don't run over little Johnny who ran in the street after his basketball. Like I said...the act of taking illegal drugs in and of itself is not harming anybody else, but it has a much higher chance of leading to the user harming someone else in some way.

The problem with focusing all of our attention on violent crime that has already happened and victimized someone is that it doesn't stop that crime from happening.....it just helps become more efficient at catching the person who committed the crime. And given the fact that many of the violent crimes that exist are committed by someone who is known to the victim, the evidence and knowledge is already there. However, if we take somebody off the street who is on hard drugs, and has a higher possibility to commit a violent crime down the road.....how is that not worth it?

 

you can use that same argument to shake down people who drink.. I think this is the problem I have with everything being discussed... alcohol is ignored... drugs are focused on.. huge hypocrisy.. further how many repeat offenders roam the streets..

The percentage of those who can handle alcohol responsibly greatly outnumbers those who can handle hard drugs responsibly.

 

Edit: I think that after 4 pages, and some AIM conversation...we should just agree that we have differing opinions, and make up