Hi Everyone,

I am interested in purchasing a Keltec PLR-16 .223 pistol and was just wondering does anyone here owns this firearm? If so, how do you like and is there any querks I should know about? Thank you for your help!

Something tells me that these are illegal in NJ....I may be wrong as this is just a gut feeling....

Weight unloaded: 3.2lbs

The muzzle is threaded 1/2-28 TPI to accept standard attachments such as a muzzle brake or flash hider.

 

3.2 lbs = 51.2 ounces

 

NJ limit on semi auto pistols = 50 ounces as I recall

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be

"substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it

meets the below listed criteria:

 

ii. A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at

least two of the following:

(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor,

forward handgrip, or silencer;

(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and

that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being

burned;

(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or

(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and

 

By my count, you have 3 "evil features" on that gun.

But its not a named assault weapon, at least that I am aware of.

So what's the verdict?

They are NJ legal I have seen them sold at my local gun.

The Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97 Pistol is an alternative that weighs 46oz. A pistol with a detachable magazine not in the grip that weighs more than 50 oz. is specifically banned.

 

"ii. A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at

least two of the following:

(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor,

forward handgrip, or silencer;

(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and

that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being

burned;

(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or

(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm; and "

The Kel-Tec is a new style pistol and is not on "the list", so the NJAG Guideline does not apply.

 

:thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

...

The Kel-Tec is a new style pistol and is not on "the list", so the NJAG Guideline does not apply.

 

:thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

Thanks for the clarification. I thought the list was just for long guns.

I don't know how you legally make sense of the two following statements within the law:

 

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be

"substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it

meets the below listed criteria:

 

New Jersey law lists firearms that are prohibited "assault firearms." N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(1). In addition, the law provides that the term "assault firearm" includes, "Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed" in the law. N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1w.(2). Thus, a firearm is an assault firearm if it is included on the list of banned firearms or if it is manufactured under a different designation than a firearm on the list but is "substantially identical" to a specific listed firearm.

 

We believe "substantially identical" is clear by its plain meaning. The Criminal Code provides that the statutes in the Code must be read "according to the fair import of their terms." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2c. The Criminal Code explains that where language may be susceptible to different readings it must be construed to "give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed." N.J.S.A. 2C:1-2a.(4), c. Simply put, the phrase "substantially identical" must be given its plain meaning, one that gives fair warning.

 

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

 

Unless quote number 2 listed above was an AG opinion rendered AFTER the implementation of quote number 1...

Damn that's pretty Kool looking pistol. Takes AR mags, right? What other similar pistols can we get in NJ?

Just want to confirm to verdict that it is nj legal

Contrary to my opinion above that was posted 7 months ago, the current NJAG will most likely attempt to prosecute you under the "substantially identical" law, even though it is not like anything on "the list".

Did anyone ever call njsp and ask? I guess il stay away from it if its going to cause problems.

Did anyone ever call njsp and ask?

 

"Mother may I" screwed the nj legal m1 carbine...

The NJSP does not give legal advice. You would be wise to not pursue this.

 

Buy a Bushmaster AR pistol if you so desire that type.

Did anyone ever call njsp and ask? I guess il stay away from it if its going to cause problems.

 

 

Best way to handle this is if not sure let your FFL call. Or ask PK90 he has a good knowledge of what is legal.

 

To the OP just because a shop sells it doesn't mean it is legal. Look at the way the law(s) are written it is open to broad interpretation by NJSP, AG, FFL, buyer, courts.....etc. Do you want to go anywhere near that quagmire? I don't buy any firearm that is to close to edge. I don't want to be a test case. I can't afford it. Can you?? Please for those of you who will innevitably cry "But if we don't stand up for....blah blah blah" let me repeat.

 

 

 

I can't afford to be a test case. And I absolutely have a fear of being incarcerated.

Ok no problem. Thanks guys. Il just stay away. Its not through an ffl. Its a private sale. I'm just going to stay away unless I have a definite answer.

I have always been facinated with this statement.

 

(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or

 

As we all know, the AR type lower is the 'actual' rifle/pistol and as such, uppers can be freely bought/sold without any restrictions. Here are two thoughts I'm tossing about;

 

1) Wouldn't that mean the 50oz weight limit apply to just the lower since that is offcially the gun?

 

2) One could buy the complete lower (machined and fully assembled) from say Rock River/Olympic etc. Wouldn't that qualify it as being 'Manufactured"? And this be the only part subjected to the 50oz limit?

My opinion of course...and has been argued before... is that the NJ AG defines "substantially identical" as in a gun that has the same "essence" as a gun on the banned list. The evil feature list defines what those "essences" are. They took the liberty of including "AW" pistol evil features along with it. Unfortunately we have already lost the battle on fighting the AWB on "unconstitutionally vague" grounds especially now that they have the evil feature list "guidelines". The next battle will be on 2A grounds, and is one that has yet to materialize.

 

NJAC:

2. Any firearm manufactured under any designation, which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed in paragraph 1 above. As used in this definition, the term “substantial” means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing and the term “identical” means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

 

 

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: the name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; and a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list. A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be “substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria: <evil feature list>

 

Translation, Any SA firearm meeting the listed criteria in the evil feature list, shall be considered to be "substantially identical" to a named "AW", aka... you will be prosecuted.

 

I absolutely feel the whole AWB and NJAC guidelines are huge pile of shiz that should be immediately struck down. Ultimately statutes are law, NJAC are guidelines, so theoretically we should be able to ignore the NJAC. Unfortunately the "substantially identical" clause is still in the statutes, so one would have to convince a jury whether or not the particular gun is or not case by case. Of course the State will whip out the NJAC evil feature list as a convenient test for the jury to use while parading your EBR around the courtroom full of sheeple.

 

What I write here is strictly what I feel the NJ AG uses as SOP's in enforcing the unconstitutional NJ AWB for purposes of myself staying out of prison. The state has built a nice sufficiently ambiguous with just enough detail AWB that they feel would win legal scrutiny in our court system (probably not in other states in free America). Fear, uncertainty, and doubt aka 'FUD' is how they choose to play the game.

 

My theory is backed up by the fact that no dealer or person that I know of is selling or purchasing for example.. a SCAR or or ACR with a folding stock and flash hider. They are not on the named list, yet nobody touches them (without altering of course). There's a reason for that. As others have said, nobody wants to be the "test case" no matter how in the right of the law we feel we are.

I saw it in a local gun store and almost brought it. But I did not dot it because 1) it was over the legal weight limit for pistals in NJ. 2) read a number of posts saying it breaks after a couple of thousand rounds. Some parts would crack on the up receiver but I don't remember which part. The store owner told me it was NJ legal though.

I think it is just too much of a on the border piece to touch.

Im guessing the plr 22 is not legal either?

Im guessing the plr 22 is not legal either?

Read some where and also told by one store that the mag in front of the trigger on a pistal is also illegal. If that is true, ruger's charger is also illegal. I think charger is also over weight. But I saw chargers in local shops many times.

just get a bushmaster pistol it is alot of fun to shoot....they fire ball is awesome

Didn't know they were legal. NICE!!!!!

Bm pistol is double the price.

 

Also wondering what is the proper method to shoot something like this?

Bm pistol is double the price.

 

Also wondering what is the proper method to shoot something like this?

 

But it's NOT a Kel-Tec and takes standard AR mags. I believe the Kel-Tec is mag sensative.

Understandable, not saying its not much better. But is a whole different price range. Would love to have a bushmaster pistol. I have a rifle and its great.

 

Ps. Reason for asking about plr22 is its under 50 oz. meaning it should only be 1 feature the magazine.

so where are at with this is this legal?