January 10, 201115 yr I'd give you 10 yards and you can charge me and / or two other armed men with a knife. I wonder how Vegas would wager the bet. I study KM, and most of us can type pretty good. Then again, we use headgear when sparring. Having trained for several years under Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso (wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program).. I would rather physically engage someone who has a gun than a knife... obviously not at 25+ feet.. but in immediate grappling distance... a knife is very hard to control.. a gun is not exactly easy to control either.. but at least you know the gun can only hurt you at one point.. plus with a gun there are things you can do to neutralize it (while you are struggling if you can manage to hit the mag release for example you just about made that weapon ineffective minus the one in the chamber obviously)... but a knife is always live.. and is always a threat.. further as you grapple with someone who has a knife as you are getting cut up it makes you less and less effective... once you get into distance though the gun is obviously far superior.. this is just my observation from having been involved in that stuff for a while.. I am not anything "special"... I actually agree that within extremely short range a gun is substantially easier to handle than a knife..
January 10, 201115 yr I was very closely following the media reports over the weekend, and I have to say that my impression is that the antis were waiting for this event, in this location, to roll out a whole new and as yet untested pile of rhetorical nonsense and ludicrous and unsupported hyperbole. There were actually some liberal pundits observing that even with Arizona’s newly relaxed gun laws, there was no armed response from the crowd at the scene. They’re questioning the RKBA argument that an armed society is to some extent self-policing, and if nobody at the scene was armed, or had the presence of mind to intervene if they were, than the entire RKBA argument for armed citizens being able to respond in the presence of such an event carries no weight whatsoever, and that absent the citizen response that the pro side uses as a talking point, RKBA serves absolutely no useful purpose to society. I find it disgusting (but not at all surprising) that the antis would turn the argument in that direction, and basically ask “Where were all the armed citizens the powerful gun lobby promised us would act in response when something like this happens?” I don’t know how the firearms community will respond to this new and unique argument, but I’m pretty sure that this is gonna put some fresh spring in the gun grabber’s step, and that it’s somehow going to affect us badly here in Fortress New Jersey.
January 10, 201115 yr Link? I think he meant: When asked about the proposal, NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam e-mailed: “At this time anything other than prayers for the victims and their families would be inappropriate.”
January 10, 201115 yr Wojo, send this to Mr. M http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B02E6DC143EF93AA35755C0A9679C8B63 IIRC it was over unpaid rent!!!
January 10, 201115 yr Kenw, my answer is simple. It will take a lot of time to undo the damage that has been done by anti gun legislation. But there are examples if anyone cares to have them cited, unfortunatly one of the potential citizens that could have put a stop to this went for cigarettes first!
January 10, 201115 yr They’re questioning the RKBA argument that an armed society is to some extent self-policing, and if nobody at the scene was armed, or had the presence of mind to intervene if they were, than the entire RKBA argument for armed citizens being able to respond in the presence of such an event carries no weight whatsoever, and that absent the citizen response that the pro side uses as a talking point, RKBA serves absolutely no useful purpose to society. I find it disgusting (but not at all surprising) that the antis would turn the argument in that direction, and basically ask “Where were all the armed citizens the powerful gun lobby promised us would act in response when something like this happens?” I don’t know how the firearms community will respond to this new and unique argument, but I’m pretty sure that this is gonna put some fresh spring in the gun grabber’s step, and that it’s somehow going to affect us badly here in Fortress New Jersey. One of the men who subdued the guy ran out of an adjacent store and was actually carrying. He recognized that someone else had picked up the gun and that it was empty, so he did not pull out his own weapon. How can they say "where were the armed citizens" when one did intervene?
January 10, 201115 yr Having trained for several years under Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso (wiki http://en.wikipedia....al_Arts_Program).. I would rather physically engage someone who has a gun than a knife... obviously not at 25+ feet.. but in immediate grappling distance... a knife is very hard to control.. a gun is not exactly easy to control either.. but at least you know the gun can only hurt you at one point.. plus with a gun there are things you can do to neutralize it (while you are struggling if you can manage to hit the mag release for example you just about made that weapon ineffective minus the one in the chamber obviously)... but a knife is always live.. and is always a threat.. further as you grapple with someone who has a knife as you are getting cut up it makes you less and less effective... once you get into distance though the gun is obviously far superior.. this is just my observation from having been involved in that stuff for a while.. I am not anything "special"... I actually agree that within extremely short range a gun is substantially easier to handle than a knife.. vlad, I agree with your position. We are also talking about men trained in self-defense versus 90% of the untrained population. Picture some screaming gang-banger coming at you with arm raised overhead with a knife. Not hard to step off line and shoot, leg swipe, or any other flavor of defensive / offensive tactic. The element of surprise plays into engagement distances as well. I was more poking fun that at entire statement he made. 10 yards is the outer limits and the typical we address being the 7 yard rule. But to be able to attack three people at the same time? If I am coming to take down three people at short range, I can tell you I am going to pass on my edged weapon and will be using something magazine fed. I know my abilities and reactions and would probably still go for my gun using one hand to block / deflect and go for a contact shot. No extra charge for the powder burns. If I am in a good mood, I'll throw the 3rd and 4th shots in for free.
January 10, 201115 yr As we all saw a few weeks ago when the 9-11 rescuers bill came up , one repub stood up and said hey , im all for helping these people but we need to be fiscally responsible in doing so and until then i cannot vote for this bill , thats all he said , he didnt say he didnt want to help the heros of 9-11 he just wanted to do it financially right , Well you would have thought hell froze over for him saying that , so what happened , every lib said How dare you do that to those people who were running in buildings when the buildings were coming down thus making it a political and public horror story that someone would dare vote no for helping our heros ,this swayed the publics view on this making him look like a guy who didnt care about our rescuers , next day bill was passed . Moral of the story , the libs will take this tragedy , run it up every flagpole , demand change and make every one of us look like gun toteing nuts which in turn will force more laws to be passed making it harder and harder to legally own a firearm .... Just my opinion ...
January 10, 201115 yr How can they say "where were the armed citizens" when one did intervene? Since when do the facts matter when those idiots are trying to make their argument for even more and greater restrictions?
January 10, 201115 yr Author One of the men who subdued the guy ran out of an adjacent store and was actually carrying. He recognized that someone else had picked up the gun and that it was empty, so he did not pull out his own weapon. How can they say "where were the armed citizens" when one did intervene? Easy. They don't report it. This story has not been anywhere else.
January 10, 201115 yr Easy. They don't report it. This story has not been anywhere else. It's been on CNN and Fox News.
January 10, 201115 yr Author I find it disgusting (but not at all surprising) that the antis would turn the argument in that direction, and basically ask “Where were all the armed citizens the powerful gun lobby promised us would act in response when something like this happens?” I don’t know how the firearms community will respond to this new and unique argument, but I’m pretty sure that this is gonna put some fresh spring in the gun grabber’s step, and that it’s somehow going to affect us badly here in Fortress New Jersey. Yup. Any CCW reform will be, Dead. On. Arrival. Or any other kind of NJ firearm law reform.
January 10, 201115 yr Not to get too sidetracked but something lost in the 21' rule discussions is that those discussions seem to be outlined for Uniformed officers working with retention holsters. Some of the new retention holsters are better but I remember some of the ones deployed by NYC, holy crap they were rediculas. It would be more like the football field rule! But change over to civy land and my Kydex Safariland, I think in a mutually aware situation, an edged attacker may well be looking at two hole in his chest even from a 12' start.
January 10, 201115 yr like i said look it you your a computer wiz I am by no means a computer wiz, I just know how to form coherent sentences that other people can read. 1 on 1, unless someone is within 5 feet, I'm going for my gun....regardless of what weapon they have. Beyond certain distances....which happen to be pretty short, a gun is far more effective than a knife. I don't know what cops can't draw and fire at least 2 shots before someone covers 30 feet, but they likely need to practice a little bit more if they can't. Cops can use their firearm on someone with a knife that is 20 feet out or less. Even at 20 feet, the cop still should have a distinct advantage. At 20 feet, the cop can draw, fire several shots, AND backpedal if there is room to do so, creating even more room.
January 10, 201115 yr On the topic of an armed citizen, I think this is a shining example of how it DOES work. It seems to me that a private citizen capable of stopping the threat arrived faster than law enforcement. Had the threat not already been subdued, he would have been the best chance at that time for stopping the active shooter.
January 10, 201115 yr I also think that a citizen who is armed is also much more likely to help in SOME way. Like in this case.....the armed citizen did not draw because he saw that the slide was locked back, yet he still intervened. He had the presence of mind, and the knowledge to know that the gun was not a threat at the time and that the suspect could be physically restrained.
January 10, 201115 yr On the topic of an armed citizen, I think this is a shining example of how it DOES work. It seems to me that a private citizen capable of stopping the threat arrived faster than law enforcement. Had the threat not already been subdued, he would have been the best chance at that time for stopping the active shooter. I agree. He did say in the interview that if he had not decided to go buy cigs first, he could have either potentially been shot/killed, or he could have stopped the shooter. With so many bystanders and such a large crowd, it would have been a very hard decision to draw/fire or not.
January 10, 201115 yr Not to get too sidetracked but something lost in the 21' rule discussions is that those discussions seem to be outlined for Uniformed officers working with retention holsters. Some of the new retention holsters are better but I remember some of the ones deployed by NYC, holy crap they were rediculas. It would be more like the football field rule! But change over to civy land and my Kydex Safariland, I think in a mutually aware situation, an edged attacker may well be looking at two hole in his chest even from a 12' start. +1 QFT
January 10, 201115 yr I clocked it at 3.5 seconds on a stopwatch between the FIRST shot from the suspect in the vehicle, to when the officer moved to the back of the vehicle, drew his weapon, and fired 2-3 shots. Take out moving to the back of the vehicle and let's just count assessing the threat, drawing, and firing.....you are looking at ~2.5 seconds. You think someone can cover 20+ feet and start slashing in 2 seconds?
January 10, 201115 yr One of the men who subdued the guy ran out of an adjacent store and was actually carrying. He recognized that someone else had picked up the gun and that it was empty, so he did not pull out his own weapon. How can they say "where were the armed citizens" when one did intervene? I think the appropriate response to "where were the armed citizens" is "where were the police that you antigunners put all your hope in?" (not cop bashing)
January 10, 201115 yr I think the appropriate response to "where were the armed citizens" is "where were the police that you antigunners put all your hope in?" (not cop bashing) Check this out! A quick Google search for "Safeway gun policy" brought me to this: Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding your local Safeway store. The policy for Safeway is that, firearms are prohibited in the store at any time. There is a sign posted in the front of the stating that policy. If you would like to discuss this further, please reply to this email or call our Customer Service toll free number at 1-877-723-3929 and reference Contact I.D 14197557. One of our associates will be happy to assist you. We appreciate your business and look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you for shopping at Safeway. Sincerely, Patricia Dawson Customer Service Center http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?53974-Email-from-Safeway Did the Tucson store have a no guns policy? The Corporation apparently does...
January 11, 201115 yr Not to get too sidetracked but something lost in the 21' rule discussions is that those discussions seem to be outlined for Uniformed officers working with retention holsters. Some of the new retention holsters are better but I remember some of the ones deployed by NYC, holy crap they were rediculas. It would be more like the football field rule! But change over to civy land and my Kydex Safariland, I think in a mutually aware situation, an edged attacker may well be looking at two hole in his chest even from a 12' start. \ready to surprise yourself and just about terrify yourself at the same time.. next time at the handgun range.. bring your CCW rig... hang a target about 20 feet away.. have someone stand to your back.. almost touching.. have someone neutral yell go the second the person to your back starts to run in the opposite direction you are shooting.. when you successfully "neutralize" the target (lets just say 2 COM hits for arguments sake) the person who yelled go will yell stop.. at that point the runner stops dead.. turn around and **** yourself at how much ground he was able to cover before you could draw and shoot... I am not a bulls eye shooter.. I don't own any kind of race gun.. but I shoot decently from a holster COM hits at self defense range.. and mine has no actual retention system.. it is a fitted kydex holster.. I was amazed at the distance.. the point of this all is to illustrate that even when you KNOW its about to happen.. an attacker can cover a lot of distance in a very short span.. I was shocked at the results.. keeping in mind this is NOT an actual SD shoot which would increase stress times a million.. but seriously.. try it out.. carry EXACTLY how you would really carry..
January 11, 201115 yr I think the appropriate response to "where were the armed citizens" is "where were the police that you antigunners put all your hope in?" (not cop bashing) Even though the Congresswoman was pro 2A, we have to remember that many Liberals are anti-gun, so probably less chance of CCWs being present than at a Republican meeting.
January 11, 201115 yr never underestimate mental illness. You are talking about the wacko extreme irrational Libs, right?
January 11, 201115 yr vladtepes I understand what you are saying. However, another overlooked item is that Im not going to just stand there and let someone stab me. For an edged attacker to be effective against me, he will need to reach me before I can draw and he will also need to get ahold of me. Its not a finish line, you have to effectively deploy. I actually dont care for these arguments because they take on a bit of an unrealistic scenario. A situation like this isnt going to be a wild west showdown of gun vs knife. Its really going to come down to who is aware first. But for the sake of the argument at hand I know what my speeds to deploy are and what distance that roughly puts an attacker "inside the wire".
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