Aha...so what is the advantage of a short barrel for anyone not planning to go kicking in doors in Falluja?

 

Lighter forward weight, faster handling, easier to carry/transport are things I noticed with my 14.5/pinned brake AR over my old 16" version.

 

I'm sure it will be easier to use behind cover, etc as well.

 

Lots of things are better in a smaller package, and typically it is a balance of tradeoffs. Like a camera, I could take a full size DSLR with a big zoom lens, or a small pocket point and shoot. Sure the larger one has better performance, but it would be overkill for snapping the occasional pic at a party, and I'd have to lug it around everywhere during the party.

 

With the 14.5 v 16 v 20 AR lengths.. its the same concept. 300meters and under I feel the 14.5" is fine. 20 inch for up to 500meters and 16" somewhere in-between. These are my thoughts gained from researching ballistics and military papers on the intertubes. IMO, for practical self-defense sake, if something or someone trying to kill me is over 300 meters away, I'd be better off evading/escaping then going at it in a fire-fight.

 

If you are going for precision shooting capabilities, the higher velocity would no doubt be more useful. Then it would make sense to give up carbine benefits for velocity.

And why the hate for short barrels? Not everyone buys an AR to slow fire from the bench at 600 yards. Also, did the OP mention a free float? I don't know that he did.

So you really think that 1.5" makes a huge difference in weight and length? If you were shooting from vehicles a lot I'd understand but you can shed a lot more weight with a lighter handguard. By all means, buy whatever the heck you want but your giving up some velocity, which you are already short of when you use a carbine. I'm not saying that they aren't cute and that I can't see why one may want it, but is that really the right FIRST AR for someone? There are soo many places to save weight that giving up form the most important component seems odd to me.

And why the hate for short barrels? Not everyone buys an AR to slow fire from the bench at 600 yards. Also, did the OP mention a free float? I don't know that he did.

 

Velocity is critically important when it comes to 5.56/.223

 

5.56, especially the cannelured rounds, are most effective when approaching 3,000fps due to their innate tendency to yaw and shatter. Less velocity = less effective range in which this tends to happen. Nowadays with most rifle twist rates around 1:7 to 1:9 the rounds fly straight, and often straight through their target.

 

In Vietnam the issued M16's had 1:16 to 1:18 twist rate barrels, making the rounds rather unstable in their flight, and causing the rounds to basically shatter on impact. I forgot where I read the article but one soldier was quoted speaking about how hard it was to take wounded prisoners alive due to the horrendous wounds 5.56 would create.

Found this in the interweb. If you are going for fragmentation velocity of popular available 5.56 military rounds, pick your engagement range. Right tool for the job...

 

You could also supplement a carbine with higher quality commercial hunting/self defense ammo that will probably perform much better at fragmenting at lower velocities than military stock like SS109.

 

The military has bee hard at work creating a new round that performs well out of carbine length rifles. like the SOST round. My link

 

Distance to 2700 fps (min vel for fragmentation)

 

M193 (Winchester white box Q3131A, by IMI)

20" Barrel 190-200m

16" Barrel 140-150m

14.5"Barrel 95-100m

11" BArrel 40-45m

 

M855 (SS109/green tip/current military ammo)

20" Barrel 140-150m

16" Barrel 90-95m

14.5"Barrel 45-50m

11" Barrel 12-15m

Found this in the interweb. If you are going for fragmentation velocity of popular available 5.56 military rounds, pick your engagement range. Right tool for the job...

 

You could also supplement a carbine with higher quality commercial hunting/self defense ammo that will probably perform much better at fragmenting at lower velocities than military stock like SS109.

 

The military has bee hard at work creating a new round that performs well out of carbine length rifles. like the SOST round. My link

 

And this is why Vlad and I prefer 16" guns over 14.5", especially if you're going to pin the gun to 16" anyway.

 

I have half a case of Mk318 SOST at home, btw. Haven't even touched it yet.

And this is why Vlad and I prefer 16" guns over 14.5", especially if you're going to pin the gun to 16" anyway.

 

I have half a case of Mk318 SOST at home, btw. Haven't even touched it yet.

 

I hope the OP has the ideas down, and can make an educated decsion based on the role and uses they want with the rifle.

 

Wow a half case of SOST? Must have cost a fortune!

 

edit: Unless you keep it plain, if you pin a muzzle device to a 16" , you now have a 17.5" barrel length.

I think we need to take into account what the OP needs/wants. Since hes a first timer when it comes to ARs, I highly doubt that hes going to be bringing a chrono to measure the individual velocity of each round fired. The stuff you guys are talking about is for advanced shooters/competitors.

As a first timer, I'm happy with my 16" barrel. It's still really light - the guy who did my muzzle brake commented as to the upper's weight.

Golf clubs gentlemen. Rifles are golf clubs. Some are specialised like a pitching wedge or a driver, some are of broader use like a 5 iron

 

So the 26" free float 6.5 grendal AR is your driver! The 12" SBR (I know, not in NJ but I'm making a point here) is your pitching wedge. A 16" lightweight ar is your 5 iron capable of a broader spectrum of usefullness. I believe in having a complete and full golf bag But I prefer my 5 iron

 

On the topic of barrels, velocity and cartidge effectiveness:

In high end ar's we are usually talking custom barrels. Custom barrels dont seem to play by the same velocity rules as factory barrels. The velocity loss is not standard!!! This is likely due to the rifling, hand lapping, and bore uniformity throughout its entire length of the custom barrel. I have seen exceptionally small differences in velocity from barrels as far appart as 16 vs 20. I would also like to repeat(as I often do) that YOU CAN NOT JUDGE 5.56 effectiveness based on military observations!!! That rhetoric is so often repeated it gets engrained in everyones mind but its so often forgotten or overlooked that we as civilians are NOT restricted to military ammo. There are plenty of 5.56 shooting out of short rifles with commercial ammo in use by law enforcement that there is little question to its effectiveness.

I hope the OP has the ideas down, and can make an educated decsion based on the role and uses they want with the rifle.

 

Wow a half case of SOST? Must have cost a fortune!

 

edit: Unless you keep it plain, if you pin a muzzle device to a 16" , you now have a 17.5" barrel length.

 

17.35" actually sir. The SOST was NOT cheap.

Don't you mean 7 iron? Play the whole game with a 7 iron just like in Tin Cup?

16" is a decent compromise. I would not go shorter.

 

But I would definitely do a build and not buy route. Maybe a hybrid route that Vlad proposed. I just do not see an off the shelf configuration that I would be happy with. A $1200 is a very decent budget for a build.

I would also like to repeat(as I often do) that YOU CAN NOT JUDGE 5.56 effectiveness based on military observations!!! That rhetoric is so often repeated it gets engrained in everyones mind but its so often forgotten or overlooked that we as civilians are NOT restricted to military ammo. There are plenty of 5.56 shooting out of short rifles with commercial ammo in use by law enforcement that there is little question to its effectiveness.

 

You are totally right here. Military cannot use HP ammo which will expand and fragment pretty well in an SBR, didn't even cross my mind earlier. We don't have to play by NATO's rules. That being said, DocGKR still loves him some Mk262 and Mk318.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75298

 

3100fps out of a 14" barrel. This is the type of round I would use for HD from a rifle.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75298

 

3100fps out of a 14" barrel. This is the type of round I would use for HD from a rifle.

 

I would be concerned with what would happen with any bullets that missed. How many dry wall and plywood houses can these things go through?

Because they are moving so fast, they tend to frag very quickly. I havent done the research on this round specifically but knowing the good Doc, he has certainly taken it into consideration. Generally speaking rounds of this type have proven to have far less penetration than pistol or shotgun.

Some random choro data that I was apart of for collection. This was of course in PA.

 

 

One of my rifles was the 14.5 (with perm attached to 16")

Aha...so what is the advantage of a short barrel for anyone not planning to go kicking in doors in Falluja?

 

It's lighter and easier to shoulder/carry. I have carried longer (A2) rifles in training and when the option is there I'll take a shorter lighter one.

 

I own guns to defend myself/family/property... And a shorter rifle allows me to do that more effectively.

 

 

 

 

What is the disadvantage?

I would be concerned with what would happen with any bullets that missed. How many dry wall and plywood houses can these things go through?

 

 

If the time comes when i need to flip the selector from safe to fire the layers of drywall and plywood the bullet may go through is the LEAST of my concerns.

 

 

First priority of a gun fight, WIN

 

Second priority everything else...

Im exceedingly happy with my off the shelf colt. It does have a different brake on it but thats it. Will likely drop a Gieselle in it at some point but other than that, she runs like a raped ape!

 

Slav, I think that I am safe in saying that a number of people in this thread like Tosser, Joel and Cylinder Head may use their rifles for gun games or classes or what have you BUT even if a config thats different than what they have might work better in a game, I bet, like me, they would not change the rifle. Because in the end, god forbid, the rifles are set up to work in the real world. Because the rifle is the insurance policy if ever everything should go wrong. That is its most basic role. Everything else we do with them is a bonus. I suspect for you the opposite is true. You focus your rifle around the needs of the sport you use it for. Thats fine but I bet that your rifle config may end up being a bit different than ours.

Good post Shane, I most definitely agree.

If the time comes when i need to flip the selector from safe to fire the layers of drywall and plywood the bullet may go through is the LEAST of my concerns.

 

 

First priority of a gun fight, WIN

 

Second priority everything else...

 

Not even a loved one/family member/child?

 

I'm not debating using an AR for HD, or what is best for HD, just the comment that barrier penetration characteristics of your HD gun and ammo is least of your concerns when it comes to winning.

Not sure where tosser was going there as I know he is well aware of backstop, but backstop is always a consideration.

Not even a loved one/family member/child?

 

I'm not debating using an AR for HD, or what is best for HD, just the comment that barrier penetration characteristics of your HD gun and ammo is least of your concerns when it comes to winning.

 

 

The question of over penetration was brought up. My contention is that in order of priority we should worry about:

 

 

1. Stopping the threat (winning)

2. Everything else

 

Because anything in priority 2 is of no consequence if you are dead.

 

 

 

 

 

editing for spelling because I went to public school.

Not even a loved one/family member/child?

 

I believe you are misinterpreting his point... If the time ever comes (God forbid) when he has to pull the trigger to defend himself or his family in his home, his focus in on winning/surviving/ensuring the safety of his loved ones. Tosser would not flick the safety off if his wife/child/family member was in the direction of fire.

 

Just saying...

Toss old buddy I think we are going to disagree on this one. If the bg is in front of my kids room, Im not taking the shot. Id rather hope I can either take the hit and fight on or hope he misses and I can maneuver to a firing position. But of course in my home I already know my safe fire zones.

 

I truly believe if you spotted someone in the fire zone, you wouldnt take the shot either. I think you are oversimplifying the decision process in this discussion. But then again, you went to public school...

Some random choro data that I was apart of for collection. This was of course in PA.

 

Was that data collected over a single chrono? because it seem VERY fast for each barrel. I've seen PMC not pull that velocity for a full 20" barrel nevermind a 14.5" and all the rest of data seem quite fast.

 

 

Also Shane, you continue to make assumptions that frankly are beginning to make you look a bit arrogant. You again state things like Slav is a gamer and that somehow you are shooter more serious then him and that his gun is a gamer gun with no practical use. Having handled his gun, I assure you that you are wrong.

Was that data collected over a single chrono? because it seem VERY fast for each barrel. I've seen PMC not pull that velocity for a full 20" barrel nevermind a 14.5" and all the rest of data seem quite fast.

 

 

Also Shane, you continue to make assumptions that frankly are beginning to make you look a bit arrogant. You again state things like Slav is a gamer and that somehow you are shooter more serious then him and that his gun is a gamer gun with no practical use. Having handled his gun, I assure you that you are wrong.

 

 

Chrono data did seem high but I've been laying back because it seems like this thread has inserted a hair up some members A$$es.

 

Yes Vlad- it appears humility is not an attribute exhibited in this thread.

 

When I get quite after reading these threads, I'm quietly laughing.

It seems to me that the consensus here, regardless of how its being said:

- is that an AR is a tool that is preferable for whatever use the end user finds it necessary to be.

- There is the capability for it to be very accurate, but by no means is an AR a precision firearm.

- A person could dump a few hundred or a few thousand into said AR to achieve whatever they want. Whether its punching holes in paper for a few chuckles a handful times a year; or if the AR is the individual's last resort; or, heck, if its a collectible.

- To go along with the prior point, a person will pay for whatever quality they are receiving. I do agree that it is foolish to get caught up in the "fanboy-ism", but I think it is equally foolish to think that there aren't proven tiers of overall quality as demonstrated over the years. Point being that not all DPMS/Bushmaster/Oly Arms are of lower quality and will automatically blow up in one's face, or that all Daniel Defense/Colt/BCM/KAC are going to be amazing and somehow run 15000 rounds without ever needing a cleaning (exaggerations here in both cases, I know).

- There is value in truly assembling an AR from the lower receiver, up. There is also value in slapping together an assembled lower and assembled upper. Heck, there is value in just buying a complete rifle. People learn about things at different rates, through different means. While the AR is standard as a piece of tool, how a person goes about learning it is on them-- and chances are if they have an AR, they will eventually learn.

 

Probably missing a point or two, but, gosh darnit, I'm starving and need breakfast.

Let's cut the elitism crap out of our arguments here. That's not to say don't offer perspective and that there is always a healthy amount of arguing/ribbing that is great for discussion, but arguing about/with our big sticks doesn't really offer any type of relevant information for people who are genuinely wanting to learn. Its not so much about why we use our rifles, but our experience(s) using them that give our information value. So, definitely something that most everybody can contribute at some level.