Anyone else worried about that probably 99% of us on the forum are able to be called to serve jury duty after reading this thread???

 

 

 

 

Anyone else worried about that probably 99% of us on the forum are able to be called to serve jury duty after reading this thread???

 

 

From MY experience?? probably not..Everyone here has a job.

From MY experience?? probably not..Everyone here has a job.

[/quote

oops wrong quote

Anyone else worried about that probably 99% of us on the forum are able to be called to serve jury duty after reading this thread???

I'd take that seriously.

I already got called up for Federal and County jury duty in the past 2 years...

Wow, really, don;' know what to say..

 

 

 

 

Well maybe I have an Idea, you might want to leave the advise to the lawyers, even if you had 100% valid information and it's not but thats neither here nor there for this point. I will say after reading how you have tried to get your point across, especially when someone isn't agreeing with you you can see the emotion in you writing and defensive writing, let alone trying to talk down to people thinking it will get your point across better.

 

Also after seeing the way the thread went and your input I will have to agree with Nick, there is now way I would visit the Law site or even think about referring anyone there.

 

I don't answer legal questions on the site. The legal questions on that site that people ask are rarely something that I would know. It is mostly contracts, divorce, real estate, etc.

 

I don't know why you lot are offended. I am not trying to sell a point. I am posting straight facts. It is your OPINION that police should not have shot the perp. However, given the circumstances, it was either SHOOT the perp, or risk having the man on the bottom killed by the perp. If you have information that leads to an otherwise different point of view, I would love to hear it, but like I said, opinions and protocols are two different things. Remember Sean Bell? He was shot, alone in his car, not stabbing anyone.

I don't answer legal questions on the site. The legal questions on that site that people ask are rarely something that I would know. It is mostly contracts, divorce, real estate, etc.

 

I don't know why you lot are offended. I am not trying to sell a point. I am posting straight facts. It is your OPINION that police should not have shot the perp. However, given the circumstances, it was either SHOOT the perp, or risk having the man on the bottom killed by the perp. If you have information that leads to an otherwise different point of view, I would love to hear it, but like I said, opinions and protocols are two different things. Remember Sean Bell? He was shot, alone in his car, not stabbing anyone.

 

 

I think you guys need to read up on the rules of engagement. If there is a person with a knife ABOUT to stab someone, then yes, "stop, police" is the appropriate first statement. However, if someone is ACTIVELY stabbing someone, then there is no more time for verbal warnings.

 

 

oh.. really? SO I dial 911.. man with a knife call.. it is an intruder.. I engage the intruder.. now we are BOTH cut.. and BOTH scuffling.. I get on top of him just as the police come in and AM stabbing him..

 

the appropriate response is to blow me away? because I am "actively stabbing someone" could be wrong.. but I am almost positive.. the police need to take a moment and assess the situation..

 

 

BTW, I never said they should have KILLED him. I simply stated the threat needed to be stopped.

 

flip flop much?

 

That is ALL the police need to know to shoot.

oh.. really? SO I dial 911.. man with a knife call.. it is an intruder.. I engage the intruder.. now we are BOTH cut.. and BOTH scuffling.. I get on top of him just as the police come in and AM stabbing him..

 

the appropriate response is to blow me away? because I am "actively stabbing someone" could be wrong.. but I am almost positive.. the police need to take a moment and assess the situation..

 

 

 

 

flip flop much?

 

Shooting and killing are two very different things in the eyes of the law. In the eyes of the law, death is a side effect of shooting. A shot between the eyes would be considered KILLING. Police are trained to stop a threat. This is the same training you guys go through in home defense gun classes. You are NOT trained to kill. You are trained to shoot center mass, and stop the threat. Did you know that after a home defense shooting, you are supposed to call an ambulance and attempt to provide first aid if possible? Now sure, 99 times out of 100 nobody will care if you didn't administer first aid, but if you actively kill someone, believe me, it won't end up well for you. Just ask the pharmacist who shot that kid, and sentenced to life in prison. The first shots were "clean" but the last were "kill shots" and sent him to prison. There is a big difference between SHOOTING and KILLING.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-pharmacist-dead-robbers-accomplices-life-prison/story?id=14053802

 

On a side note to address your other point....and BTW, it has happened before, if you called 911, and when police get there, you are in your OWN HOUSE actively stabbing the intruder, do NOT be surprised if you get shot in the process. This is why when police arrive at your house, you drop your weapons, raise your hands, and yell that you are the caller. You do NOT continue to engage when police arrive, or else, your point rings true. Police do not know who is who, and will take out the person they THINK is the threat. Remember, they are human. If you walk in on a stabbing, what are you going to think? Time won't help you decide who is who.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/phoenix-family-lawsuit-cops-shot-homeowner-intruder/story?id=8756441

Shooting and killing are two very different things in the eyes of the law. In the eyes of the law, death is a side effect of shooting. A shot between the eyes would be considered KILLING. Police are trained to stop a threat. This is the same training you guys go through in home defense gun classes. You are NOT trained to kill. You are trained to shoot center mass, and stop the threat. Did you know that after a home defense shooting, you are supposed to call an ambulance and attempt to provide first aid if possible? Now sure, 99 times out of 100 nobody will care if you didn't administer first aid, but if you actively kill someone, believe me, it won't end up well for you. Just ask the pharmacist who shot that kid, and sentenced to life in prison. The first shots were "clean" but the last were "kill shots" and sent him to prison. There is a big difference between SHOOTING and KILLING.

 

do you always split hairs..

 

first of all I AGREED that the cops were wrong to do nothing.. I have been saying that all along..

second.. if the "training" we provided to officers was some super magical training that equated to not killing people but JUST stopping the threat.. we would have cops shooting knives out of peoples hands and nonsense like that on a regular basis.. we would have police shooting people in the legs.. you know.. just to stop them.. all the "stuff" that keeps you out of a morgue is center mass.. it is the largest easiest to hit area to KILL someone.. and that is why we shoot center mass.. attempting to get first aid after the situation yeah obviously you are going to call an ambulance.. you are not going to just roll the body into the street.. you are blinded by your limited view.. look at someone like joe horn.. who shot and killed a burglar in the BACK as he ran away from him.. all the while on the phone with 911 telling him NOT to engage the perpetrator.. CLEARED OF ALL CHARGES.. but hey.. you know everything.. and that is why you are running into so much resistance.. because you can't even find a middle ground with someone like myself who just about all agrees with you.. I think that the situation is ALMOST exactly as you described.. with ONE qualifier.. and that is the officer ordering the attacker to stop.. it is that one simple aspect that you can not wrap your head around.. you think it is fine for joe smith class 2 with not an ounce of experience to go guns blazing because he sees someone attacking someone with a knife.. the police can not protect the victim if they do not know who the victim is.. you say they can not be judge.. but in YOUR scenario they are judge jury and executioner.. they are relying on facts they are unaware of to lay down the ultimate justice and use deadly force.. deadly force is IMO a last resort.. you shoot someone when there is no other option.. the 2 milliseconds it would take to yell "police stop" makes all the difference in the world.. especially when a police officer is first on the scene and has NO idea what the facts are.. think about it.. you are on top of someone who just killed your wife.. and you just got the knife from him.. in bursts the police.. in your world.. they shoot you dead without saying a single thing.. without even giving you the option to stand down.. and that is just totally illogical..

do you always split hairs..

 

first of all I AGREED that the cops were wrong to do nothing.. I have been saying that all along..

second.. if the "training" we provided to officers was some super magical training that equated to not killing people but JUST stopping the threat.. we would have cops shooting knives out of peoples hands and nonsense like that on a regular basis.. we would have police shooting people in the legs.. you know.. just to stop them.. all the "stuff" that keeps you out of a morgue is center mass.. it is the largest easiest to hit area to KILL someone.. and that is why we shoot center mass.. attempting to get first aid after the situation yeah obviously you are going to call an ambulance.. you are not going to just roll the body into the street.. you are blinded by your limited view.. look at someone like joe horn.. who shot and killed a burglar in the BACK as he ran away from him.. all the while on the phone with 911 telling him NOT to engage the perpetrator.. CLEARED OF ALL CHARGES.. but hey.. you know everything.. and that is why you are running into so much resistance.. because you can't even find a middle ground with someone like myself who just about all agrees with you.. I think that the situation is ALMOST exactly as you described.. with ONE qualifier.. and that is the officer ordering the attacker to stop.. it is that one simple aspect that you can not wrap your head around.. you think it is fine for joe smith class 2 with not an ounce of experience to go guns blazing because he sees someone attacking someone with a knife.. the police can not protect the victim if they do not know who the victim is.. you say they can not be judge.. but in YOUR scenario they are judge jury and executioner.. they are relying on facts they are unaware of to lay down the ultimate justice and use deadly force.. deadly force is IMO a last resort.. you shoot someone when there is no other option.. the 2 milliseconds it would take to yell "police stop" makes all the difference in the world.. especially when a police officer is first on the scene and has NO idea what the facts are.. think about it.. you are on top of someone who just killed your wife.. and you just got the knife from him.. in bursts the police.. in your world.. they shoot you dead without saying a single thing.. without even giving you the option to stand down.. and that is just totally illogical..

 

Fair enough. But again, you are talking about TWO different things. Fundamentally, we are in agreement. I agree with everything you said PERSONALLY. However, there is a reason things like I posted happen. Police have a certain way of doing business. When police even CONFRONT anyone with a weapon, they have their guns drawn. If that person is told to put the knife down, and instead, goes for someone's throat, they are going to get shot, period. If police burst into your home (in the exact scenario you described) they will tell you to drop the knife. If you do NOT, they WILL open fire on you, regardless of you being the owner, and regardless that your wife was just stabbed by this guy. They have seconds to make a decision, and in there eyes, they have man A doing grave bodily harm to man B. At this point, previous circumstances cease to be taken into account, as police can only judge what they see in front of them. Sure, if on the phone call to police, you were described as a blond male, and the perp is a black male, police MIGHT have an easier time telling who is who, but that is not always the case.

 

You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said police should hop out of their cars, and open fire. However, when police are clearly surrounding you, yelling for you to stop, and you DON'T, AND you are causing bodily harm, your one and only warning passed.

On a side note, a few members took my "worthless" comments about police personally....I am not anti police. My local township cops (Millburn/Short Hills) are very nice, professional guys. I like police when they act with TRUE CPR (courtesy, professionalism, respect.) However, in corrupt organizations like NYPD, LAPD, etc, they have gotten out of control and need to be stopped. Here is the newest example.

 

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/nypd_cops_among_arrested_in_gun_SqJMEbnKJcPdF8itqxN9EJ

Neutralize both individuals, cuff them, and let the paramedics attend to the wounded. Sort out who did what afterward.

Neutralize both individuals, cuff them, and let the paramedics attend to the wounded. Sort out who did what afterward.

 

Agreed (although in this case, the man on the bottom didn't seem to pose a threat.)

 

I don't know why you lot are offended. I am not trying to sell a point. I am posting straight facts. It is your OPINION that police should not have shot the perp. However, given the circumstances, it was either SHOOT the perp, or risk having the man on the bottom killed by the perp. If you have information that leads to an otherwise different point of view, I would love to hear it, but like I said, opinions and protocols are two different things. Remember Sean Bell? He was shot, alone in his car, not stabbing anyone.

 

What in the hell kind of point are you trying to make?

 

Despite how badly/poorly you try to make your point, you are not offending anyone, you just sound silly for saying the only option is "shoot-but-don't-kill."- or whatever it is you are trying to say. Maybe all that makes sense in your mind, but the words you type don't sound as intelligent to us as they do to you.

 

The fact is, everyone in the situation lived and no shots were fired.

On a side note, a few members took my "worthless" comments about police personally....I am not anti police. My local township cops (Millburn/Short Hills) are very nice, professional guys. I like police when they act with TRUE CPR (courtesy, professionalism, respect.) However, in corrupt organizations like NYPD, LAPD, etc, they have gotten out of control and need to be stopped. Here is the newest example.

 

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/nypd_cops_among_arrested_in_gun_SqJMEbnKJcPdF8itqxN9EJ

 

The NYPD is corrupt and out of control and needs to be stopped? 35,000 of them or a few bad apples who took advantage of their positions? I'm thinking that there will never be a large police force that pleases you.

I think they're watched, and on video every day. Would video of police shooting people make you happy, really?

It has become clear that we are arguing with someone that thinks his own opinions are fact and has demonstrated he truly doesnt understand the subject matter.

 

2 more things to ponder. Cop or concerned bystander, who the hell is rushing in to a situation everyone sees is being taped in this litigious society!!!!! Again, if activity is at a lull, which in my opinion it was in this vid segment, I think a well trained, experienced police officer will take every advantage of that time to further observe to make informed decisions, give suspects a chance to process commands and or come out of a state of auditory exclusion etc etc. Its a good path to take when there is no clear answer. Again, if the actor started actively stabing again then this would have triggered a justified escalation of force but until then, a few extra seconds to observe and make the right call is smart. Im not saying every officer theere was acting under these pretenses, Im sure 1 of each fits all motivations discussed here.

And on that note, I hope you guys really try and understand what you actually saw in that video. In states with no concealed carry, where your political leaders expect you to rely on police for protection, it's nice to know that if you are getting stabbed, police will tug on the perps belt for you. I hope you lot do your due diligence to protect your families, regardless of police protection. Have a great week.

NFR, your preaching to the choir on the topic of self protection and self reliance. The topics, although related, are different. I know for a fact that most of the people that posted in this thread are dedicated shooters with a strong focus on self defence. They are proponents of situational awareness with a "don't be a victim" mindset.

NFR, your preaching to the choir on the topic of self protection and self reliance. The topics, although related, are different. I know for a fact that most of the people that posted in this thread are dedicated shooters with a strong focus on self defence. They are proponents of situational awareness with a "don't be a victim" mindset.

 

 

Word

Fair enough. But again, you are talking about TWO different things. Fundamentally, we are in agreement. I agree with everything you said PERSONALLY. However, there is a reason things like I posted happen. Police have a certain way of doing business. When police even CONFRONT anyone with a weapon, they have their guns drawn. If that person is told to put the knife down, and instead, goes for someone's throat, they are going to get shot, period. If police burst into your home (in the exact scenario you described) they will tell you to drop the knife. If you do NOT, they WILL open fire on you, regardless of you being the owner, and regardless that your wife was just stabbed by this guy. They have seconds to make a decision, and in there eyes, they have man A doing grave bodily harm to man B. At this point, previous circumstances cease to be taken into account, as police can only judge what they see in front of them. Sure, if on the phone call to police, you were described as a blond male, and the perp is a black male, police MIGHT have an easier time telling who is who, but that is not always the case.

 

You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said police should hop out of their cars, and open fire. However, when police are clearly surrounding you, yelling for you to stop, and you DON'T, AND you are causing bodily harm, your one and only warning passed.

 

I am not putting words in your mouth..

you SAID.. that the act of stabbing someone was enough for police to justify use of deadly force.. and I used to agree with that..

but I believe it was shane that corrected me.. and said they need to figure who is who and what the hell is going on before shooting someone.. which makes sense..

 

I was hung up on the fact that actions alone would be enough to shoot.. and that police MUST order someone to stop before shooting.. for the very reason posted above..

And on that note, I hope you guys really try and understand what you actually saw in that video.

 

What I do know is what I did see in this video ONLY and the same is true for ALL of us, however we did not see what happened before or after that may have a huge impact on how things were handled.

 

Remember Monday morning Q-backing is easy for everyone to do including the all the actual responders, but things are a lot different at the moment it's happening.

 

And before you comment, think of the response that can be returned please.

I could be wrong but they may not have shot because they could not get a proper backstop to any bullet...

 

 

um.. The Car... The Ground!

um.. The Car... The Ground!

 

um.. The Car... The Ground!

For the Record, the ONLY thing on a car that will stop a handgun round is the Engine Block or Wheel hub...standard handgun ammo is more than likely going to go through one door and right out the other side. Unless the ground is soft dirt that round is going to glance off and end up someplace you dont want it to be.

For the Record, the ONLY thing on a car that will stop a handgun round is the Engine Block or Wheel hub...standard handgun ammo is more than likely going to go through one door and right out the other side. Unless the ground is soft dirt that round is going to glance off and end up someplace you dont want it to be.

 

40S&W HP ammo will maintain integrity THROUGH one car door and out the other? not calling BS or anything as I do not know.. but I find that somewhat surprising..

40S&W HP ammo will maintain integrity THROUGH one car door and out the other? not calling BS or anything as I do not know.. but I find that somewhat surprising..

 

Not sure about it maintaining integrity, but I could see it passing through and with that risk I can see some apprehension to shoot in a crowded street, well assuming the street is crowded.

From my observations it is largely up to if the round connects with internal bracing/brackets etc etc or not. Catch nothing but sheet metal and most things will make it through.

40S&W HP ammo will maintain integrity THROUGH one car door and out the other? not calling BS or anything as I do not know.. but I find that somewhat surprising..

We've done it...it's NOT a guaranteed outcome, but we fired a magazine through a CV that was going to be junked, and out of 14 rounds IIRC at least half of them completely went through the doors, the others caught internal bracing or other structures.

We've done it...it's NOT a guaranteed outcome, but we fired a magazine through a CV that was going to be junked, and out of 14 rounds IIRC at least half of them completely went through the doors, the others caught internal bracing or other structures.

Ya need the kevlar option, but even then your feet are visible.

Ya need the kevlar option, but even then your feet are visible.

Sheeeiiit..We consider ourselves lucky the cars Run, Town next to us was down to ONE operable marked unit not too long ago, and we had to lend them a couple of cars..I can't get a damn shotgun mount nevermind Kevlar door panels LOL