you guys are next!

This is kind of interesting. I wonder what they were charged with? IIRC there was a bill that attempted to make airsoft guns be considered firearms - and the way our laws are written, they actually do fit the definition as the determinate facior is whether they can injure someone, which is far from specific.

 

Schools have a lot more latitude, as far as what they consider weapons. I have read of students being suspended under zero tolerance policies for wearing T-shirts with the image of a gun on it. I don't remember running across this in my perusal of the NJ statutes, but isn't there usually some type of "replica firearm" law in place - for those that may try to rob a bank with a toy gun? I assume they could be charged under that.

 

This one may bear watching.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

they actually do fit the definition as the determinate facior is whether they can injure someone, which is far from specific.

Stock airsoft guns are far from being able to seriously injure some one, let alone kill. The only way you can become seriously injured, or disfigured is if you get shot in the eye, or mouth and you lose a tooth. I've been shot over and over by them with velocities ranging from 250 to 450 feet per second, the most damage I've ever had was a welt on my elbow that got a little bloody. I've been hit every where else and it just stings for a minute.

 

As to the article it sounds like they had some cheap Chinese pieces of crap that shot cheap Chinese plastic pellets. Not going to seriously injure someone, but they should have known better than to bring them to school. I blame the kids and the parents and if NJ can't see thats what happened and want to restrict OTC airsoft gun sales then they're as stupid as the kids and parents.

The only way you can become seriously injured, or disfigured is if you get shot in the eye, or mouth and you lose a tooth. I've been shot over and over by them with velocities ranging from 250 to 450 feet per second, the most damage I've ever had was a welt on my elbow that got a little bloody. I've been hit every where else and it just stings for a minute.

 

My point exactly. The law does not define "injury". Any of the things you list could be considered injurious by some people, while others may just laugh it off. Depends on how zealous the prosecutor is. Like most of our gun laws it lacks specificity.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Are toy cap guns banned in NJ?

My point exactly. The law does not define "injury". Any of the things you list could be considered injurious by some people, while others may just laugh it off. Depends on how zealous the prosecutor is. Like most of our gun laws it lacks specificity.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Agreed. But you'd be hard pressed to find a Doc that is willing to say that a small impact 'injury' that is gone in 12 hours is a serious injury. While NJ may lack specifics on injury definitions, it'd be hard to explain a 'serious' injury that isn't even there by the time the court date arrives, even with photographic evidence, any lack of serious debilitation would hopefully result in a dismissal of the case. But knowing NJ they'll just throw the book at you any way just because.

Are toy cap guns banned in NJ?

If things keep progressing like they do, you never know lol.

 

But seriously, no they aren't. They aren't a projectile weapon, they're a toy. So theres really no reason to ban them.

Are toy cap guns banned in NJ?

it depends on what they look like...if the observer thinks it's real and you point it at him/her you could be royally screwed.

 

Imitation firearms. Any person who has in his possession an imitation firearm under circumstances that would lead an observer to reasonably believe that it is possessed for an unlawful purpose is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

 

 

 

Regardless, under preemptive federal law, neither can be legally defined as firearms.

but we're talking about jersey here...

"Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or

any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

Are you kidding me? The news article tried to be as vague as possible, by eluding that the guns are pellet guns versus airsoft guns. I guess "airsoft" sounds too innocuous, so they use "pellet gun" instead , which typically refers to a high powered airgun that shoots lead pellets.

 

Are kids allowed to bring airsoft guns to school? No. They should be punished and the parents should have to pick up the toy guns. But this zero-tolerance pussification-based hysteria reaction... drives me nuts.

 

Regardless, under preemptive federal law, neither can be legally defined as firearms.

Agreed. But you'd be hard pressed to find a Doc that is willing to say that a small impact 'injury' that is gone in 12 hours is a serious injury. While NJ may lack specifics on injury definitions, it'd be hard to explain a 'serious' injury that isn't even there by the time the court date arrives,

 

The law says nothing about a "serious" or "debilitating" injury, it just says, "...with sufficient force to injure a person." Again, with no definition of what constitutes an injury, the field is wide open.

 

Regardless, under preemptive federal law, neither can be legally defined as firearms.

 

Federal law does not recognize pellet and BB guns as firearms, but it is not pre-emptive or NJ couldn't have the law you cite, where they are specifically defined as firearms.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Stock airsoft guns are far from being able to seriously injure some one, let alone kill. The only way you can become seriously injured, or disfigured is if you get shot in the eye, or mouth and you lose a tooth. I've been shot over and over by them with velocities ranging from 250 to 450 feet per second, the most damage I've ever had was a welt on my elbow that got a little bloody. I've been hit every where else and it just stings for a minute.

 

The gun drew blood. Would you say that when you draw blood, it is the result of an injury? My guess is the majority of people in NJ would.

Are toy cap guns banned in NJ?

 

I saw them for sale in Kmart a few days ago.

Sigh......

Plain and simple these kids should not have had these sold to them or access to them. It's partially the parents' fault for not keeping these from their kids and the kids fault for being fsckall stupid.....

The law says nothing about a "serious" or "debilitating" injury, it just says, "...with sufficient force to injure a person." Again, with no definition of what constitutes an injury, the field is wide open.

 

 

 

Federal law does not recognize pellet and BB guns as firearms, but it is not pre-emptive or NJ couldn't have the law you cite, where they are specifically defined as firearms.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Hi Bob,

 

USC Title 15, chap 76, 5001

 

) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions

The provisions of this section shall supersede any provision of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identification inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall—

(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or

(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B–B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

Airsoft up to 400fps?

 

I have seen some airsoft guns tuned to over 700 fps. I am a distributor on paper, for one of hte major ones, and regularly see guns advertised up to 500 and 600 fps.

500 fps is usually the legal limit on fields - and those are only for designated marksmen rifles - semi auto only and with minimum engagement distances.

 

We usually do 400 FPS with .25g bbs at outdoor fields. Indoors it's either 300 or 350 with .20g

Dan, my head is spinning from the legalese, but I think you're making this into something it's not, but can't quite wrap my head around it.

 

It is talking about markings - which I assume is the mandated orange muzzle. But, you are right it is a pre-emption statute. But it pre-empts laws that would seek to ban such devices - says nothing about regulating them, which is what would happen if NJ decides they do meet the state definition of a "firearm".

 

I think my head is going to explode - I'm probably the one that is reading too much into this.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

They won't prohibit the sale of airsoft. They will require the same $hit needed to buy real guns, complete with the FID, mental health check, OGAM, and all the "evil" feature ban.

Orange markings on toys are one thing, but I was referring to your comment:

 

Federal law does not recognize pellet and BB guns as firearms, but it is not pre-emptive or NJ couldn't have the law you cite, where they are specifically defined as firearms.

 

The federal says states or local laws cannot prohibit the sale of airguns except to minors. So that means that anyone who is not a minor by federal law can go to the store and buy a pellet/BB gun without any requirements or regulations. What airgun manufacturers have to abide by regarding product safety laws are another thing, such as requiring orange muzzle tips when they leave the factory , etc are a separate issue. It would have to be a federal law that forces something like that.

 

That being said, states, municipalities, cities, etc will place laws around the sale of pellet/bb guns, such as NJ still having them defined as firearms in the statutes. Since there is no punishment associated with breaking this federal law, it will continue to be abused. Just like how NJ PD's can abuse the statutes on the FID and PPP processes without repercussions.

 

All IMO, IANAL of course...

This stuff should be banned, they look like guns and they could scare people. Bloomberg loves these things.

Airsoft up to 400fps?

 

I have seen some airsoft guns tuned to over 700 fps. I am a distributor on paper, for one of hte major ones, and regularly see guns advertised up to 500 and 600 fps.

700 FPS is usually after after-market upgrades (i.e new spring, new piston, new barrel, better o-ring compression, etc). Lots of money gets dropped into a gun to make that happen. And you don't see them on the field. 500-600 FPS is with light-weight projectiles, usually .12 to .15 grams to achieve maximum velocity. Its stamped on the box because some kids see faster and automatically think better. Its a giant marketing ploy to jack sales up, dependent on the kids who don't know better.

So that means that anyone who is not a minor by federal law can go to the store and buy a pellet/BB gun without any requirements or regulations.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting this.The federal statute you cite prohibits banning the sale of them, it says nothing about the states right to regulate them. Even in Heller the SC siad that there could be reasonable regulation. The state has the right to regulate them any way they wish, as long as it doesn't turn into defacto prohibition, which is what Heller II is about. Wash DC made ownership conditions so onerous that it was still impossible to buy and own a gun.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Isn't the orange tip requirement a federal requirement? I have seen toy guns and Airsoft here in KY with the orange tips.

We had a vaguely similar incident here in Bergen County last month. Although, it wasn't in school it did involve a lot of concerned LEO's and it was all surrounding a couple of paintball guns.

 

http://www.northjers...html?c=y&page=1

The gun drew blood. Would you say that when you draw blood, it is the result of an injury? My guess is the majority of people in NJ would.

 

Picking your nose can draw blood. Is that an injury?

Isn't the orange tip requirement a federal requirement? I have seen toy guns and Airsoft here in KY with the orange tips.

 

No, It's only required by federal law for importation.

Yeah, a lot of people take the orange tips off. I did on my 1911 when I was younger and played airsoft.

 

Playing airsoft was...interesting. Some people would be having fun, others would pretend they were GI Joe and pick fights. These were grown adults mixed in with 16 year old kids like myself at the time, btw.

 

For kicks and giggles... the PRNJ was the last to legalize paintball. At one time, you would need an FID to buy them in the early 80's, and shooting someone on a paintball field carried the same charges for discharging a firearm. Good times.

I'm not sure where you are getting this.The federal statute you cite prohibits banning the sale of them, it says nothing about the states right to regulate them. Even in Heller the SC siad that there could be reasonable regulation. The state has the right to regulate them any way they wish, as long as it doesn't turn into defacto prohibition, which is what Heller II is about. Wash DC made ownership conditions so onerous that it was still impossible to buy and own a gun.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Heller II refers to firearms, and did not challenge any existing federal preemptive laws around firearms. Not sure where the argument here applies to airguns.

 

If USC 15,76,5001 says that state and local laws cannot prohibit the sale of airguns "except to minors", then any type of regulatory, prohibitory, or other type of preventative ordinance, etc to purchasing (and thus implying possession) of airguns, to other than minors, is against federal preemptive law.

 

Just like NJ gun laws where guns are illegal except under certain exemptions. According to federal preemptive law, airguns are legal except under one exemption which is being a minor.

I saw them for sale in Kmart a few days ago.

Did they have the caps for them? I remember hearing somewhere that the caps are considered fireworks, and as we all know, all fireworks are illegal in NJ.

*shakes head, sadly*