Got an email from Midway after I sent them my FID and DV copies this past week...so looks like they are off my list...thanks NJ

 

 

Dear Steve,

 

Thank you for your email with the included NJ Foid card. I'm sorry but due to New Jersey's regulations we are still unable to send handgun ammunition to your address.

 

If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at [email protected].

 

Thanks for Your Business!

 

Daren

MidwayUSA Customer Service

I'm stocking up before all online retailers are banned from shipping ammo. As much as I like buying local, few have large selections & good prices.

Apparently the state is threatening to sue online retailers of handgun ammo. I'm not sure about rifle (hopefully not). It's a backdoor way of limiting ammo of course...

Looks like I'm Gunna have to start sending ammo to my family in pa...ugh drive a hour for it now damn u nj

I had a paragraph typed, but decided against posting it, so I'll just leave it at this. I just added cases of Remington Golden Saber 9mm 124-grain JHP's to my cart and got all the way to where they wanted my CC info and had no problem.

I don't think I've ever ordered ammo from Midway, but I have ordered parts/accessories there and have an account. Just logged in, put some Speer gold dot 9mm JHP's in the cart and tried to check out. Immediately after selecting my "ship-to" address I got the following:

 

We're sorry, but City or State law prohibits us from sending item(s) in your cart to the address you have specified.

 

As of April 1, 2008, New Jersey statutes will not allow sales of handgun ammunition to New Jersey.

 

 

I'm then presented with the option of either changing my shipping address or removing the "restricted" items from the order.

 

So are some Midway customers able to order (this_is_nascar ?) and some aren't?

Just went back to the CS rep that responded to my first inquiry. If you remember, she said everything was hunky-dory as long as they had your FPID on file. I ask her what was up with this latest response. I'll post her response here when I get it.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I don't think I've ever ordered ammo from Midway, but I have ordered parts/accessories there and have an account. Just logged in, put some Speer gold dot 9mm JHP's in the cart and tried to check out. Immediately after selecting my "ship-to" address I got the following:

 

 

 

I'm then presented with the option of either changing my shipping address or removing the "restricted" items from the order.

 

So are some Midway customers able to order (this_is_nascar ?) and some aren't?

 

 

What I'm saying is that the women who handeld my case did it properly. She linked my FID info to my account login. Apparrently, whoever is doing these other ones are f*cking it up.

Hopefully, their policy DID NOT change to stop shipping to NJ.

So my questions are..........Are these laws alread on the books, effecting On-line sales or are these new.....also if they're recent how come no one knows about this moving foward....?

What I'm saying is that the women who handeld my case did it properly. She linked my FID info to my account login. Apparrently, whoever is doing these other ones are f*cking it up.

 

Understood. If that's the case then their statement on the checkout page is misleading. There's no indication there that you can send in FID info to get cleared for sale.

Understood. If that's the case then their statement on the checkout page is misleading. There's no indication there that you can send in FID info to get cleared for sale.

 

 

That's right, there's not. The only reason I knew about that was that someone here actually called and spoke to them and posted about it. I then called, talked to the lady, got the fax number to fax my FID info. A couple hours passed, she said my FID was linked to my account and I've been good to go ever since.

That's right, there's not. The only reason I knew about that was that someone here actually called and spoke to them and posted about it. I then called, talked to the lady, got the fax number to fax my FID info. A couple hours passed, she said my FID was linked to my account and I've been good to go ever since.

 

So I suppose the answer is to just keep trying until you find the right person at CS to approve your account for handgun ammo?

If NJ has a way of getting online retailers to tattle tail on you isn't a FPID card on record a paper trail? I would find a new place to shop from.

I've never had a problem with Brownells. Maybe some some companies are more afraid than others?

Glad I roll my own...

This situation with Midway is very strange. I e-mailed them a copy of my scanned card. I received an e-mail back that said

 

Thank you for sending us a copy of your Firearm Purchaser Identification card. Your Identification card has been processed and added to your account. You can now place orders online at www.midwayusa.com.

 

So today, purely in the interest of research, I tried to order some Gold Dot 9mm HP that is on sale. Then I got the message on the web site that they could not send it to me because of my NJ address. So I e-mailed customer service to see what the problem is.

 

There are lots of places to buy ammo, so I don't really care about Midway. It is more a matter of curiousity now.

_{Every time I read these posts I get nervous and buy another case of ammo from Natchez or some other place online. If online sales to NJ really do dry up, we are in deep doo doo b/c the local stores are expensive, inconvenient and not very well stocked.}

First, maybe an administrator ought to lock the older thread and we'll pursue this under this one.

 

Here is the response I got from Midway customer service:

 

Dear Robert,

 

Thanks for your response email. I apologize, but at this time our system is not set up to sell handgun ammunition to New Jersey. However, I have forwarded your email on so that we can take a look into this matter and see if we need to make some changes. If the statue has changed, this may be something that just needs to be cleared up on our end. I hope this doesn't cause you an inconvenience.

 

If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at [email protected].

 

Thanks for Your Business!

 

Lindsey

MidwayUSA Customer Service

 

To which I rfesponded:

 

The problem is your inconsistent application of whatever your policy is - which at this point remains an unknown.

 

The statute has not changed since it was passed and signed into law in 2008. All the statute requires is that the buyer exhibit (exact wording from the statute) their FPID, valid permit to purchase a handgun or concealed weapon license to the seller, in order to purchase handgun ammunition. Nothing more.

 

What is frustrating is to read about other NJ residents successfully purchasing handgun ammunition from your store and then have others complain that they were denied.

 

You apparently have the means to link a copy of a person's FPID card (by far the most common form of ID when purchasing ammo) to their account, yet even those that have done so, or have submitted a copy with their order (as in the most recent case) are sometimes denied the ability to purchase.

 

If you do not wish to sell ammo to the NJ firearms community, please just say so. If that is not your intent, then please put a consistent policy in place and make sure that your sales and customer service staff are aware of what that policy is and what you require of NJ buyers to complete a transaction. It's not that difficult - it seems you had/have the mechanism in place but ill informed staff, or a misprogrammed automated response system are not properly applying that policy.

 

Please advise as to the ultimate resolution of whther handgun ammunition sales will be made to NJ. Thank you.

 

Regards,

 

(Pizza) Bob

 

Again, I'll let you know what shakes out.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

This situation with Midway is very strange. I e-mailed them a copy of my scanned card. I received an e-mail back that said

 

 

 

So today, purely in the interest of research, I tried to order some Gold Dot 9mm HP that is on sale. Then I got the message on the web site that they could not send it to me because of my NJ address. So I e-mailed customer service to see what the problem is.

 

There are lots of places to buy ammo, so I don't really care about Midway. It is more a matter of curiousity now.

 

I just got a response from them that says:

 

Thank you for your email regarding handgun ammunition. At this time, we are unable to comply with New Jersey's requirements to sell handgun ammunition to Firearms Purchaser ID holders. I apologize for the inconvenience. We are still able to sell rifle and shotgun ammunition to New Jersey residents.

 

So it seems that even if you provide them with a copy of your FID, they still will not sell ammo to NJ residents. Strange.

I'm chuckling to myself, picturing a reply like this: "I'm Larry Potterfield for Midway USA, and that's the way it is."

OK, here is the response I got, which at least explains why they are denying NJ purchasers - although they may be calling some of us liars. LOL. Here's the response...

 

Dear Robert,

 

Again, thank you for your reply. You are 100% correct in stating that the law changed in 2008. But New Jersey law requires any company selling ammunition to a resident of New Jersey to maintain records of that sale for seven years. Our current record keeping software is not set up to maintain those records for that long. Therefore we cannot legally sell ammunition to you.

 

If there are any NJ residents posting anywhere that they purchased ammunition from us, then they either had it shipped to an alternate address, didn't purchase ammunition that wasn't categorized as handgun ammo, or are stretching the truth. Any item that is put in your shopping cart that has been deemed illegal to sell to a NJ resident will not allow your order to process until that item is removed.

 

MidwayUSA wants to sell all of our products to every US citizen. It's only local government and their laws that stand in our way.

 

If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at [email protected].

 

Thanks for Your Business!

 

Daren

MidwayUSA Customer Service

 

OK, so my question is: Where is this seven year edict? It's not in the statutes. I did find the following in the NJAC:

 

N.J.A.C. 13:54-3.14 Permanent record of receipt and disposition of firearms and

ammunition

(b) Every retail dealer of ammunition shall maintain a permanent record of ammunition

acquisition and disposition. The record of purchase or acquisition shall consist of invoices or

other commercial records, which shall be filed in an orderly manner separate from other

commercial records maintained. Such records shall show the name of the manufacturer, the type,

caliber or gauge, quantity of the ammunition acquired in the transaction, the date of each

acquisition and from whom received. The record of sale or disposition shall be maintained in a

bound form and shall contain the date of the transaction, name of manufacturer, caliber or gauge,

quantity of ammunition sold, name, address and date of birth of purchaser, and identification

used to establish the identity of purchaser. The dealer shall confirm the age of the purchaser of

rifle and shotgun ammunition to be at least 18, and handgun ammunition to be at least 21. No

record need be maintained for the sale or disposition of shotgun or rifle ammunition. However,

sales or other dispositions of ammunition intended for use in any other firearm and which may

be interchangeable between rifles and handguns, as well as hollow-nosed or dum-dum

ammunition, must be recorded. The records shall be maintained in chronological order by date of

acquisition and disposition and shall be kept at the location the business is being conducted.

© The firearms and ammunition acquisition and disposition record as prescribed under this

section need not be required, provided the dealer maintains an updated Federal firearms and

ammunition record on firearms or ammunition purchased or acquired and sold as prescribed in

Title 26, Internal Revenue, Chapter 1 "Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition", and to the

extent that the information required by this section is included on such records. If not included,

then the Federal records are to be supplemented so as to include all information required by this

section.

 

You will notice that paragraph © supplants the requirements in paragraph (b).

 

So I guess I have some questions that are best answered by some of our legal eagles and FFL holders.

 

1) Is the "Disposition Record" referred to in paragraph © a federal requirement? And if so, does it contain the same info as required by the state "Disposition Record" referred to in paragraph (b)?

 

2) Is the federal "Disposition Record" considered permanent?

 

3) Can the state enforce its regulations (not laws) on vendors doing business in the state via interstate commerce?

 

4) Where did this "seven years" maintenance of records come from? And, referring back to #3, can an out of state vendor be forced to comply?

 

Well, what say you, knowledgable ones?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I guess the best thing for me to do is keep my mouth shut and order ammo from Midway when I need it or its on sale. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot, so to speak, to prove that I'm able to order handgun ammo and have it shipped to my NJ home .

Why does Midway care what NJ law is? As long as they break no FEDERAL laws. The point of sale is Missouri. As long as they have no footprint in NJ they are not subject to any of NJ laws.

Why does Midway care what NJ law is? As long as they break no FEDERAL laws. The point of sale is Missouri. As long as they have no footprint in NJ they are not subject to any of NJ laws.

 

And what LAW would that be anyway? The NJ Administrative Code is not actual law anyway, what is NJ going to do? take away Midway's non existent NJ license? There is nothing in NJ's statutes (actual law), that I'm aware of, that requires a record of ammo sales to be kept.

If you go to Dicks in NJ they write-down your info when you buy handgun ammo and escort you to the counter to pay for it, whatever, I don't care. You go to Cabellas in PA and take whatever you like off the shelf (handgun/long gun) and go to the counter and pay for it, no escort, no ID needed.

 

If Midway doesn't want to see us ammo, so what, there are plenty of places on-line to deal with.

And what LAW would that be anyway? The NJ Administrative Code is not actual law anyway, what is NJ going to do? take away Midway's non existent NJ license? There is nothing in NJ's statutes (actual law), that I'm aware of, that requires a record of ammo sales to be kept.

 

When it comes to things that are regulated and require licenses (Gun dealers, ammo sales (in NJ and some others), alcohol, tobacco, hunting, etc), there are regulations that are promulgated as well. For holders of these licenses, the regulations carry the weight of law.

This may be a stretch, but isn't this related to the commerce clause in the constitution? I did a little reading, in particular at this site:

 

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/statecommerce.htm

 

In particular, I found these two cases interesting:

 

Baldwin v G. A. F. Seelig (1935) invalidated a New York law prohibiting the sale in the state of New York of milk bought outside of New York. New York argued the law was necessary to avoid price competition that would drive dairies into producing less wholesome milk. The Court, more realistically, saw the law as protectionist. Justice Cardozo wrote that when "a state tries to isolate itself economically" it must show an important interest for doing so and that it had no less discriminatory mean open for accomplishing its goal. Cardozo's test has become the standard test for evaluating state laws that discriminate against out-of-state commerce.

 

In Philadelphia v New Jersey (1976), the Court struck down a New Jersey law that prohibited the importation of garbage into the state. Concluding that garbage was "commerce," the Court viewed the law--despite its environmental justification--as unconstitutional discrimination agains out-of-state commerce. The Court held that as long as reasonable, non-discriminatory alternatives exist that serve the states legitimate interests, they must be used instead of a discriminatory ban.

Why does Midway care what NJ law is? As long as they break no FEDERAL laws. The point of sale is Missouri. As long as they have no footprint in NJ they are not subject to any of NJ laws.

 

I was going to ask that...along with why would they need a copy of the FPID?

When it comes to things that are regulated and require licenses (Gun dealers, ammo sales (in NJ and some others), alcohol, tobacco, hunting, etc), there are regulations that are promulgated as well. For holders of these licenses, the regulations carry the weight of law.

 

That is exactly my point, Midway doesn't have or need NJ licenses. AFAIK you cannot be charged criminally with violating the AC, they only leverage NJ has is to pull your NJ state license.