So after Family Day at CR my adult daughter took a real liking to the 22 rifle and wants one, guess the few times I took her didnt count(LOL). However she is very hesitant about the application process because she just started working in a elementry school and is worried about the police doing a employment verification to the school. She fears it may throw up a red flag with the school admins. What if the police give away the fact that its a firearms reference, even tho they shouldnt its not something that can be taken back and these days school/gun aint too kosher in the same sentence.I feel bad for her and understand her fear- it may sabatauge(sp?) her career.I gave her the standard rhetoric about standing up for your rights etc. but also am in agreemant about the potential fallout- her teaching carreer.I know there is no easy answer here but she asked me to just get some opinions from "my" gun forum so....kind of a sucky situation : (

That does suck. Its a shame it has to come to that. She just has to think long and hard about it. Also has to be willing to fight if things dont go her way.

Have her put "Self Employed" or "Homemaker" under employment..

If they find out she is lying its considered lying on an official document and could get her jammed up.

My wife just went thru his last year -- Works at a preschool -- She used her boss, the school director, as a reference -- No problems -- FID and P2P

I think maybe you are being overly paranoid - a by-product of the state in which we live. First, you don't know if the police will even disclose the reason for the employment check. Perhaps a post on here for other residents from your municipality can answer that. Or the direct route: "I understand that you have to verify employment, but I would appreciate it if you would not disclose that this is for an FPID." Or something along those lines directly to the investigating officer.

 

Can the school or district take overt action - no. But I understand the concerns about actions that may occur as a result that would be difficult to attribute to the action of her obtaining an FPID.

 

Good luck with whatever she decides.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

If they find out she is lying its considered lying on an official document and could get her jammed up.

 

If she tutors on the side, she's self employed

So after Family Day at CR my adult daughter took a real liking to the 22 rifle and wants one, guess the few times I took her didnt count(LOL). However she is very hesitant about the application process because she just started working in a elementry school and is worried about the police doing a employment verification to the school. She fears it may throw up a red flag with the school admins. What if the police give away the fact that its a firearms reference, even tho they shouldnt its not something that can be taken back and these days school/gun aint too kosher in the same sentence.I feel bad for her and understand her fear- it may sabatauge(sp?) her career.I gave her the standard rhetoric about standing up for your rights etc. but also am in agreemant about the potential fallout- her teaching carreer.I know there is no easy answer here but she asked me to just get some opinions from "my" gun forum so....kind of a sucky situation : (

 

It can all boil-down to WHERE she teaches school! More on this a little later. Have her look in the parking lot for any vehicles with any various spotsman's stickers or license plate brackets, then strike-up a conversation with the owner(s) of said sportsmen's vehicles. If other teachers/janitors/etc. are displaying NRA stickers, she shouldn't give it a second thought.

 

Here's the WHERE part I was writting about earlier:

 

I bring a 10 ga. black powder muzzleloading double-barrel shotgun, with everything needed to make it function, onto SCHOOL PROPERTY every May! I'm part of a Black Powder Club that does re-enacting. The Club brings a 5# English Cannon complete with carriage to this event, and sets it up in the rear of the Middle School, for the Kids to fire the cannon using blank charges (under strict supervision, with eye and ear protection). All told, we have a flintlock, my 10 gauge, a Mortar (also fired by Kids) and the 5 Pounder all making SMOKE on SCHOOL GROUNDS, near the Cherry Ridge Range.

 

So a lot depends upon WHERE your daughter teaches!

 

PM me for more details and thoughts!

 

Dave

If she tutors on the side, she's self employed

 

 

 

 

 

I this is "sidermans" daughter (26yrs old) speaking now:

 

This my first year working in a school full time....and yes, I do tutor/babysit on the side, but I am on the payroll of the school as well as another parttime job, so kinda a catch 22 there...not lying if I say "tutor" but also not disclosing my other "on the books employment"... :girlwacko:

 

- and yes, I am very paranoid (even though yes,it is my 2nd amendment right) because of the recent shooting incidents in schools....the schools really advoate the school setting being a "safe place" and I'm sure whoever the employment check is checked with,(assuming the police do state what it is for) the word will spread that I am getting a gun, which is unfortunetly a little taboo to talk about as a public school teacher.

 

I am very torn between embracing my right to own a firearm and the reality of the situation.

 

Are there any teachers out there who have had experience with this?

This is a sucky situation to be in. Apply for a permit to exercise your rights and possibly be fired for it. Great state we live in.

 

Not a teacher so take it for what its worth. I have heard some teachers go on unemployment during the summer.

If her town does this she could apply in June and put unemployed without lying.

My wife just went thru his last year -- Works at a preschool -- She used her boss, the school director, as a reference -- No problems -- FID and P2P

 

 

This is sidermans's daughter speaking:

 

1) This is my first year teaching in the school so I don't know any admins very well nor do they know me very well

 

2) This is for an employment verification not the reference check, but glad to hear your wife had no issues! =)

This my first year working in a school full time....and yes, I do tutor/babysit on the side, but I am on the payroll of the school as well as another parttime job, so kinda a catch 22 there...not lying if I say "tutor" but also not disclosing my other "on the books employment"... :girlwacko:

IMO (and IANAL), putting self-employed or "Tutor" would be sufficient. Honestly - it's not like they'll go to great lengths to verify everything. There are some PDs that will call and WILL say what it's regarding, and this has caused issues for people (I think someone here was working at Home Depot or Lowes or something like that and had issues... can't remember).

 

I have heard some teachers go on unemployment during the summer.

 

That's a whole other bag of worms that'll spark off a whole tangent... lol.

Does she get laid off for the summer? Might be a good time to put unemployed on the application.

Does she get laid off for the summer? Might be a good time to put unemployed on the application.

 

SIderman's daughter here:

 

I do not work in the school during the summer months but I do have a different part time "on the books" over the summer too, and don't want to use them for employment verification.....

Does she get laid off for the summer? Might be a good time to put unemployed on the application.

 

She just said it's her first year teaching fulltime (congrats, btw - my fiancee's a teacher also) so that wouldn't work.

Detective called my workplace a few times i was applying for permits but when told i was not available and to leave a message.

 

He considered that as verifying employment and did not discuss anything with anyone further.

I the last year my township wants the paystub as employment verification due to many places referring them to HR who wants them to write a letter and officialy request verification and such.......so they decided to ask for a paystub as it was delaying the permit process.

 

Its an additional requirement and you can black out any info you want except your name and employer address, but it got the processint time to 35 days on the day.

To be honest, a big issue would be the town in which she is applying. She could simply ask to speak with the person that investigates the applications and explain the issue. They are not supposed to disclose the purpose of the employment verification but let's face it, some feel everything they do is above the law and do what they want. I think you would come away from a discussion of the issue with either a good feeling they would do the right thing and not disclose the purpose of the employment verification or that they would indeed not keep the issue confidential. I would make my decision to apply based upon my feeling after the discussion.

 

I just had a similar issue, I took home the paperwork for a pistol permit on President's day and learned a week later I was going to be laid off, not trusting the PD to keep the reason for the employment check confidential and not trusting one of the HR bliss-ninnies to hit the panic button I was looking to purchase pistol I waited until I was officially terminated before submitting the application as "unemployed". Sucks but welcome to NJ.

Have her put "Self Employed" or "Homemaker" under employment..

 

For the Love of God, DO NOT lie on a FPID application. If you get caught, it is a Criminal conviction and you give up your 2A rights not only here in NJ, but also in America.

This is sidermans's daughter speaking:

 

1) This is my first year teaching in the school so I don't know any admins very well nor do they know me very well

 

2) This is for an employment verification not the reference check, but glad to hear your wife had no issues! =)

 

Make sure that is all it is. My PD sent a reference form that sounds just like the personal reference form. State that it is for firearms and asks the questions about character and suitability to own a firearm. My company refused to do anything with it, even after the detective said they simply had to verify employment. Thankfully, everything went through anyway but not until after numerous people in my company (my boss, the local HR manager, the VP of HR, the legal depatment, etc.) were made aware that I was seeking to own a firearm. A clear and unnecessary violation of my right to privacy. The detective was really great about the whole thing, but the system sucks and needs to change.

 

BTW, unless there is something specific in your contract your employer is under no legal obligation to verify employment. I hate to say this, but I would probably lay low for a while if I were you. Once you get to know the people you work with a bit better you could discuss it informally with them. Others may have already gone down this road.

 

I'm not saying you would lose your job over the application, but it might just put a black mark against you with those in authority. Can you discuss it ahead of time with your NJEA representative? I would think such a conversation would be confidential.

I think maybe you are being overly paranoid - a by-product of the state in which we live. First, you don't know if the police will even disclose the reason for the employment check. Perhaps a post on here for other residents from your municipality can answer that. Or the direct route: "I understand that you have to verify employment, but I would appreciate it if you would not disclose that this is for an FPID." Or something along those lines directly to the investigating officer.

 

Can the school or district take overt action - no. But I understand the concerns about actions that may occur as a result that would be difficult to attribute to the action of her obtaining an FPID.

 

Good luck with whatever she decides.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Unfortunately when I applied, they did tell my employee why the reason they checking my employment. But my HR department didn't care.

why not ask the detective at the police station what their policy is?

How big a school is this? You would be surprised how many employees at your workplace actually are pro-gun.

 

So what what the police tell them. It is your right. They can't fire you because you applied for a FPID/P2Ps. BTW, the police can not disclose this info either. If either occur, lawyer up. Do not lie down, rollover or scamper to a corner because of someone else's views. Grow some.

 

That is the problem with NJ gun owners. They are their own worse enemy.

I posted back a little while ago about this very issue. I feel there is a good reason to sue around current privacy laws if they disclose to your employer that you are pursuing a FOID. It may be prudent to have a lawyer look into this, and have them send a letter ahead of time to the PD of your intentions to sue if they invade your privacy. It may be enough to get an agreement out of them that they will just be doing a generic employment check.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/38012-foid-references-and-information-how-its-used/page__pid__505671#entry505671

How big a school is this? You would be surprised how many employees at your workplace actually are pro-gun.

 

So what what the police tell them. It is your right. They can't fire you because you applied for a FPID/P2Ps. BTW, the police can not disclose this info either. If either occur, lawyer up. Do not lie down, rollover or scamper to a corner because of someone else's views. Grow some.

 

That is the problem with NJ gun owners. They are their own worse enemy.

 

I'm a girl, what would you like me to grow? And would you like to pay for my lawyer fees?

Can that line just be left blank? If the PD asks why you don't want to put that info down tell them you don't want it to impact your job or relationship with those you work with/for. Say that there are many people in this state who are anti-gun and you don't want to be viewed in a negative way by your employer or coworkers. If it is simply to verify that you work there perhaps a pay stub would suffice. If they say it is to check your character or whether or not you should own a gun tell them that you have already provided two references for that on the form. They don't ask an unemployed persons non-existent boss if they should have a gun and I don't see why they should ask an employed persons either. A call to your local PD and a brief chat with the officer who handles FID's will (or atleast should) answer any questions you have about that portion of the form and what contact if any they will have with your employer. Personally I think it is a BS extra step. If someones employer thinks an employee isn't stable enough to own a gun they should probably coinsider firing them.

They wont look at your tax stubs so you can say self employed since tutoring is part of your job. They just want a basic Idea of your job, when I went for mine although I own my own business now, at the time I was still running under my fathers corporation and he was never contacted about me applying for permits. I made sure my references had nothing to do with my job as well just good family friends so they couldnt even answer about my job if asked.

I would agree with going direct and requesting that the reason for verification is kept confidential. When i applied for my fid my chief came in the following day and had flat out stated "So i see youre buying a gun". Although they shouldnt divulge why, specifically asking to not give the reason for verification would be the most straightforward, respectful way to go about it.

Yeah, if the police disclose the reason for their employment verification, that is an egregious breach of privacy, and if the school fires you based on your wanting to buy a firearm, that is a breach of your second amendment right. Either way, they'd open themselves up to some BIG lawsuits.

Afraid some of you are missing the point. I would hope that no school district would be dumb enough to take overt action against an applicant. It is the covert stuff that impacts your progress within your job, that results from wanting to be a gun owner.

 

The problem comes back to the PD's compliance with the law - an ongoing battle, but this is a somewhat new arena. We are not talking about added content here, we are talking about the police overstepping the guidelines, which, in turn, may have a negative impact on the applicant's livliehood.

 

NJAC 13:54-1.15 states:Any background investigation conducted by the chief of police, the Superintendent or the county prosecutor, of any applicant for a permit, firearms identification card license, or registration, in accordance with the requirements of this chapter, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such investigation, including the applicant...

 

Now, if even the applicant isn't allowed to know, how can the PD interpret the inclusion of the field for "Employer" as justification to disclose the purpose of their inquiry and treat the employer as a reference. As was stated - there are fields on the form for references (and in MHO, even the references shouldn't be informed as to the reason - it should be a straight-up character reference with no mention of firearms).

 

The whole situation stinks. This is rule by intimidation. As I stated in my previous post, she should request a meeting with the investigator that does the background check andrequest he not disclose the reason to her employer. Dependent on the investigator's response she can decide whether to go ahead and apply, or not.

 

After the "added form or content", I believe that disclosure of the reason for the background investigation, to both employers and listed references, should be the next area of concentartion for the NJ2AS. JMHO.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

I'm a girl, what would you like me to grow? And would you like to pay for my lawyer fees?

 

Any good lawyer would jump at that chance. See Pizza Bob' s post.

 

26YOA. You are a woman and by now I hope you have a base set of morals to not let people illegally dictate your future. Good luck.

 

Sent from my DROID4