Congrats HE, you've turned this into ...

 

That's very helpful and backs up your position in the matter perfectly. Excellent contribution to this discussion. I mean really, who could find fault with that logic?

 

Well done djg0770!

 

ETA: This thread was about choosing a CCW. By stating my opinion on selecting a weapon for CCW and subsequently defending my position, I have somehow turned this thread into a pissing contest?

 

 

Edited because my initial post brought as much to the discussion as djg0770's photo above

Yes...this is a thread about CCW

 

While they make so many guns you can conceal, your stance is "Conceal the most powerful gun you can" That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

 

( ! )

Almost, "Carry the gun you shoot the best" is my position.

 

I am not going to carry a .454 or a S&W .500 because I can't shoot them to save my life. (Pun intended)

Lets try to put an end to the pissing match.

 

Like every other weapon choice (manufacture quality aside) there is a balance between three primary physical attributes of the weapon; the caliber, the capacity and the size/weight. Removing one's proficiency with a particular weapon from the equation for a moment for the simple fact that if you practice enough you will eventually become effective enough to use just about any weapon we are talking about here in a defensive scenario.

 

So choices mostly fall into the following categories (I'll stick with the most common rounds generally approved by most police departments throughout the US for their officers to carry off-duty so 500 Magnum, .454 casull, .32 ACP and .25ACP are all out):

1. Large size heavy gun with a limited number (6-7) of highly effective rounds like a .45ACP
   
2. Medium size and weight gun with a large number (up to 15 for us serfs here in the PRNJ) of moderately effective rounds like a .40S&W or a 9mm
   
3. Small size ultra-light weight gun with a limited number (6-7) of marginally effective rounds like a .380ACP
   

I recall reading somewhere that the average self-defense shooting for the most part occurs within a distance of 21 feet, roughly 3-5 rounds are fired and start to finish the entire event generally lasts under 5 seconds from the time a threat is recognized until someone is laying on the floor. In an average situation as stated any one of those weapons with proper training would be similarly effective. Bottom line, ultimately what it all boils down to is a matter of preference of how heavy/large a weapon someone is willing to lug around all day.

If you are outside of NJ and can carry anything you want, why in the world would you limit yourself to a pocket gun in .380?

 

Because I like the size and ease of carry. I have other options being I do own a bunch of different guns, but this one is just fine for me and no adjustments of wearing different clothes from my normal attire. Now if I'm on my bike on a X-country ride, I will also have my G19 and probably another gun in addition to the BG380 with me, especially if I'm pitching a tent for the night here and there being the .380 won't do me a lot of good with a bear or mountain lion.

ETA: This thread was about choosing a CCW. By stating my opinion on selecting a weapon for CCW and subsequently defending my position, I have somehow turned this thread into a pissing contest?

 

 

 

Actually the thread title on this thread is not what CCW gun should I get, it's "Looking for a pocket gun"

 

What I do know the way I dress I'd have a better and quicker responce time to getting my BG380 out of my pocket carry and on target than if I tried stuffing my G19 in there.

Lets try to put an end to the pissing match.

 

Like every other weapon choice (manufacture quality aside) there is a balance between three primary physical attributes of the weapon; the caliber, the capacity and the size/weight. Removing one's proficiency with a particular weapon from the equation for a moment for the simple fact that if you practice enough you will eventually become effective enough to use just about any weapon we are talking about here in a defensive scenario.

 

So choices mostly fall into the following categories (I'll stick with the most common rounds generally approved by most police departments throughout the US for their officers to carry off-duty so 500 Magnum, .454 casull, .32 ACP and .25ACP are all out):

1. Large size heavy gun with a limited number (6-7) of highly effective rounds like a .45ACP
   
2. Medium size and weight gun with a large number (up to 15 for us serfs here in the PRNJ) of moderately effective rounds like a .40S&W or a 9mm
   
3. Small size ultra-light weight gun with a limited number (6-7) of marginally effective rounds like a .380ACP
   

I recall reading somewhere that the average self-defense shooting for the most part occurs within a distance of 21 feet, roughly 3-5 rounds are fired and start to finish the entire event generally lasts under 5 seconds from the time a threat is recognized until someone is laying on the floor. In an average situation as stated any one of those weapons with proper training would be similarly effective. Bottom line, ultimately what it all boils down to is a matter of preference of how heavy/large a weapon someone is willing to lug around all day.

 

I still don't see a pissing match. I see an interesting discussion on an apparently controversial subject. I understand that no one likes being told they have an ugly baby, but people are taking my stance very personally. It isn't personal. It's about sharing info, based on individual experience and frame of reference.

 

Anyway....

Removing one's proficiency with a particular weapon from the equation for a moment for the simple fact that if you practice enough you will eventually become effective enough to use just about any weapon we are talking about here in a defensive scenario.

 

This, in my experience, is simply not true for most gun owners out there, and skill at arms is the single most important factor determining the outcome of any fight. You simply can not discount it in deference to "practice" to be had had some later date.

 

TK421 I also don't agree with your categorization of calibers into highly, moderately, and marginally effective ammunition. Given ammo that will penetrate adequately to hit vital areas, (modern .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, .44mag, .45 ACP) high, moderate, and marginal effectiveness is more a function of shot placement than ammo selection. Yes, I left .380 off that list as its penetration issues still make me categorize it as a sub caliber - that's a personal choice on my part and not a universal truth.

 

Finally, in my experience, the often repeated statistic of 3-5 round fired at such close distance is due to a skewed reporting factor: suicides, accidental, and self inflicted gun shots are included in the stats as shootings. These are typically 1 round at 0 feet, and there are a lot more of these shootings than gunfights. Gunfights, while still occurring at close distances are typically way more than 3-5 rounds.

 

 

Because I like the size and ease of carry. I have other options being I do own a bunch of different guns, but this one is just fine for me and no adjustments of wearing different clothes from my normal attire. Now if I'm on my bike on a X-country ride, I will also have my G19 and probably another gun in addition to the BG380 with me, especially if I'm pitching a tent for the night here and there being the .380 won't do me a lot of good with a bear or mountain lion.

 

Actually the thread title on this thread is not what CCW gun should I get, it's "Looking for a pocket gun"

 

What I do know the way I dress I'd have a better and quicker responce time to getting my BG380 out of my pocket carry and on target than if I tried stuffing my G19 in there.

 

That's fine Harry, but honestly, which gun do you shoot better, the G19 or the BG .380?

 

I bet it is the G19 and with just a little effort, you can easily conceal it, and be much better prepared to protect yourself and your loved ones. That's all I am saying.

dudes looking for a pocket gun, can we keep the discussion at that?

The LCR revolver?About the same size . The Shield as a single may be a tad thinner though.

 

The Shield is too big for pocket carry.

I still recommend the cm9. Great pocket gun

Does this work as a pocket gun?

LCP!

R9

Beretta Model 20 or 21 ( .25acp/.22 iirc )

 

The thing is so tiny, honestly about the size of some of todays cell phones. Right in your pocket, no issues. It's a fun little shooter as well.

 

-alec

Beretta Model 20 or 21 ( .25acp/.22 iirc )

 

The thing is so tiny, honestly about the size of some of todays cell phones. Right in your pocket, no issues. It's a fun little shooter as well.

 

-alec

 

Have one at the house out in AZ in .25acp. Last time I was out there, I forgot how small a .25acp really was, even saw .25acp shot-shell or whatever they called it at the Scottsdale Gun club. I will say, it is a fun little gun to shoot.

Beretta Model 20 or 21 ( .25acp/.22 iirc )

 

The thing is so tiny, honestly about the size of some of todays cell phones. Right in your pocket, no issues. It's a fun little shooter as well.

 

-alec

 

If you shoot me with that and I found out about it I'm going to be very mad!

That's fine Harry, but honestly, which gun do you shoot better, the G19 or the BG .380?

 

I bet it is the G19 and with just a little effort, you can easily conceal it, and be much better prepared to protect yourself and your loved ones. That's all I am saying.

 

Actually I shoot by Brazos Custom Edge or CZ 75 Tactical Sport better than the Glock 19 but neither of them are POCKET GUNS as is the title of the thread, so I'll stand by my BG380 being my best POCKET GUN and I think it shoots very well.

This, in my experience, is simply not true for most gun owners out there, and skill at arms is the single most important factor determining the outcome of any fight. You simply can not discount it in deference to "practice" to be had had some later date.

 

I'm not trying to in anyway discount the importance I was merely putting it aside for a moment to focus purely on the weapons in question. In fact I later went on to make the case that with enough training I believe any weapon in the range of calibers we are discussing would be equally effective in a close quarters defense situation.

 

TK421 I also don't agree with your categorization of calibers into highly, moderately, and marginally effective ammunition. Given ammo that will penetrate adequately to hit vital areas, (modern .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, .44mag, .45 ACP) high, moderate, and marginal effectiveness is more a function of shot placement than ammo selection. Yes, I left .380 off that list as its penetration issues still make me categorize it as a sub caliber - that's a personal choice on my part and not a universal truth.

 

I don't know anyone who would dispute the .45ACP. .44magnum, 10mm, .357magnum or .357 sig are all highly effective calibers. Through the years I have heard many opinionated shooters bicker over both the effectiveness and the ineffectiveness of the .38special, .38 ACP/super and 9mm. The .380ACP, .32ACP, .25ACP and .22lr are absolutely at the bottom end of the spectrum and most would agree their performance is marginal at best. I cut off at the .380ACP as it is the lightest caliber I have seen departments approve for off duty use. Since the discussion was originally intended to cover "pocket pistols" you must take these into consideration.

 

Finally, in my experience, the often repeated statistic of 3-5 round fired at such close distance is due to a skewed reporting factor: suicides, accidental, and self inflicted gun shots are included in the stats as shootings. These are typically 1 round at 0 feet, and there are a lot more of these shootings than gunfights. Gunfights, while still occurring at close distances are typically way more than 3-5 rounds

 

I find this interesting, I've never read anything making this argument but it certainly makes a lot of sense. Do you have any studies you can site that make this point; I would be interested to read them.

I offer up my cm9 anytime for you to try. I even have a pocket holster for it. I have carried it many times in my right front pocket with my hands in my pocket on the gun. Recoil is very manageable even when using my 147 grain Winchester hp duty ammo. Very accurate as well.

I offer up my cm9 anytime for you to try. I even have a pocket holster for it. I have carried it many times in my right front pocket with my hands in my pocket on the gun. Recoil is very manageable even when using my 147 grain Winchester hp duty ammo. Very accurate as well.

 

The Mk9 was one of my favorite subcompact 9mm pistols, I never had the opportunity to fire the CM9 but I can imagine. Kahr makes some very nice weapons.

Boberg XR-9S

I researched the crap out of this subject, the smallest 9mm will be the r9 that pk90 owns, the only negative about that one is the mag release, and expensive next up from that in size is the kahr cm9/pm9 and it has a normal mag release and is very shootable, pocketable and accurate... i have one for sale in the marketplace...