Ray,

 

I am not saying that no one should carry a revolver for SD. I am saying that it is becomeing a less prevelant choice for many reasons. among them are capacity, bulk, reload speed, more dificult to shoot. You asked if they are dead for CCW/HD and I think they are on their way out.

 

New shooters don't have the time, money or attention span to really learn to shoot a revolver with that long DA trigger pull.

New shooters are being introduced to the life by folks that only know Semi Autos.

New shooters will choose what they know when the decide what to buy for themselves.

 

If you like to carry a revolver brother, go for it. I will stick to my semi.

 

I spent over 30 years as a LEO. 4 years as a municipal police officer and the rest of the time with the Federal government. Most of that time I was a firearms and tactics instructor. I still do private instruction. I went in the Army in 1967 at age 17 and got the free tour of SE Asia where I started carrying a firearm on a daily basis (including revolvers). I stayed in the National Guard and Reserves and as a result have instructed soldiers on everything from a 1911/S&W Model 10/M9 to a 8" howitzer. I also got to go to other exotic dangerous places. Between the two careers I have seen and been involved in shots fired in anger on a couple of continents and at least 5 states.

 

That's for those of you who don't know me. Those who do know me know I think a 4" 357 revolver is the best do it all handgun made. I'll express my other opinions in responses to some other posts.

 

 

 

Sales of S&W 642s and other J frame size revolvers don;t support your claim of them being dead for CCW. The fact that many who buy these are satisfied with pie plate accuracy (their issue not the gun) is a different issue. Yes they are limited as far as capacity goes but I never could understand why big he-men feel burdened by a 2 pound gun. As far as the trigger pull goes I do see a trend among some new revolver shooters trying to get the lightest trigger pull possible. Smooth is more important than light. Many "gunsmiths" go to lighter springs to mask a gritty trigger (which is harder to solve). A good "revolversmith" can get a S&W or Ruger trigger down to about 8 lbs with stock springs (and it will be smooth). If you find a big difference in your shooting between a 8 and a 5 lb trigger, you are not a very good shot.

 

Mastering a DA revolver is not magic. Its paying attention to what you're doing. When I was in the police academy in the 70s I saw people who never fired a handgun shoot expert after a week on the range. This was with stock out of the box revolvers. It ain't hard if you want to learn.

 

I am also a LEO. Been on the job for 10 years now and am currently a Patrol supervisor in a Municipal Agency. I have been on a regional SWAT team and a FA Tactics Instructor for 8 years and counting, and I disagree that a 4" .357 is the best do it all handgun made. I learned on a Semi. I carry a Semi everyday, I practice on a Semi regularly. I flat shoot my Glock better than my Model 15 revolver all day long. Why would I think that a 4" .357 is better?

 

Yes, I know small revolvers (J-Frame, LCR, etc..) are still being bought. But, from what I am seeing many are being relegated to BUG status, not primary CCW. Of all of my Cop friends, old and young, I only know 3 that even occasionally carry a revolver as a primary CCW piece. One carries a 686, one a S&W in .45ACP (I dont know the model) the other a Ruger SP101. But, they all also carry a semi as well.

 

I also am seeing a lot of these smaller revolvers being bought as an afterthought. The "Hey, I have a permit left and I dont have a revolver yet. I want one." So it is bought, it goes in the safe and occasionally comes to the range, or it gets stashed in the house as a HD piece.

 

I know that shootng a revolver is not magic. It is the result of practiving the proper fundamentals. When I was in the Police Academy in the 2000's I saw people who had never fired a handgun shoot perfect Qualification scores and take the Firearms award with a Semi (A Beretta 92 at that). The Fundamentals executed properly, whether with a Semi or Wheelgun, will carry you through. (And for those reading this that never had to qualify, your quaification score has absolutly nothing to do with real world use of a firearm. It is merely a test of basic marksmanship and weapons handling that has very little to do with fighting with a firearm)

 

Oh, and I agree that it isnt the trigger weight that makes a revolver harder to master than a semi, it is the length of the trigger pull. I don't know anyone that can shoot a DA gun more accurately or faster than a SA gun given equal amount of time on both systems.

 

"The "New York reload" was named after the practice of dumping one revolver for another gun." After that sentence your history is way off. I worked closely with NYPD from 1983-2005, have many friends still there, and my agency used Rodman's Neck for qualifications. When you spend 12+ hours sitting in a car together on surveillance you get to talk about a lot of things. The NY Reload goes back to at least the 60s years before speedloaders were around (mid 70s). NYPD carried ammo in dump pouches or loops. NYPD didn't authorize semi-autos for the troops until the Dinkins administration (circa 1990-91) although IIRC they allowed ESU guys to carry Beretta 92s sometime in the 80s. NYPD policy to this day is very strict not only specifying caliber but make, model, barrel length, and even finish of your gun. They didn't allow stainless guns until the 80s. Prior to that it was blue steel only.

 

When Jim Cirillo started on the Stake Out squad he carried two Model 10s, a alloy frame Colt in his back pocket (Agent I think), and a 380 PPK in an ankle holster (which was not authorized). He eventually got "special permission" to carry a 1911 in conjunction with his stake out duties. Just as Jim carried the PPK, many NYPD officers carried what they felt like, knowingly in violation of department regulations. Frank Serpico carries a Browning High Power after he started receiving threats when the Knapp Commission started without any departmental approval.

 

Yes there are documented cases of NYPD guys carrying semi-autos before 1990 but it wasn't as prevalent as you make it out to be.

 

I wouldn't say I am way off. In fact, I would say that my history is pretty right on. I said the reason for the second gun was the slow reload from the dump pouch. I understand that carrying a semi as a backup was not that wide spread, but I also understand that it did hapen. I didn't go into specs for NYPD Authorized service weapon as that had no bearing what so ever on the topc of the NY Reload. I also know, and thus is the real point to be made here, that as the semi autos came to be authorized, (my buddy from TARU carried a first gen S&W auto as an authorized duty gun way before the G19 program) the need for the NY Reload diminished greatly.

 

I didn't Google al the shootings you posted but IIRC they were all one active shooter. Now if the guy walks in and shoots you first it doesn't make a difference what you're carrying, you're shot. If you are able to take cover I can't see why you feel a revolver puts you at such a disadvantage. Are you laying surpressive fire? You can do that with a revolver. Spraying and praying?

 

Yes revolvers can malfunction. However, most malfunctions are due to magazines and ammunition. A revolver has the simplest malfunction drill, pull the trigger again.

 

BTW the reason pilots carried 38s in Vietnam was because with the greater number of aircrews they needed to give them handguns and 1911s were more expensive. The Army went from maybe a few hundred aircraft in say 1960 to several thousand by the end of the 60s.

 

Having been there, done that I am most assuredly not comparing games to the real thing.

 

Your scenario of being faced by 30-40 threats is intresting. If faced with such a problem disgression is the better part of valor and its time for you to unass the area. If they are armed with firearms once you drop one or two the others will seek cover unless you are being attacked by the Chinese hordes. If you can't escape I think the best you can hope for is taking as many of them with you as you can. If you're talking about a civil disturbance situation and looters you forgot something very important. most looters are unarmed. People loot because its fun getting something for nothing. If you shoot one or two of them...its not fun anymore and they will look for easier pickings. Even if a few are carrying firearms the rest won't stand there and be bullet stops.

 

Don't get me wrong I own and use high capacity semi autos. I've never complained about having too much ammo. I don't dismiss revolvers as antiques and not a viable weapon however. 5 or 6 shots will suffice for most situations and if I find myself in a situation where it doesn't that's my fault.

 

Other than the capacity issue, if you refuse to learn how to use a revolver (and that includes tactics not just the gun) thats not my problem. I laugh when I see these muscle bound guys that can press 350 and complain a revolver is heavy and the trigger is too hard.

 

Do you carry a full size service auto 24/7? I know some that do.

 

As to being shot first, with that mentality, why carry a gun? I don't plan on being shot first. If I am I don't plan on dying. If I do, I don't plan on doing it without a fight. I understand that it may not work out that way, but I am not going to plan for it. Spray and pray is a waste of ammo, and you will have precious little until the fight is over. Fast misses are worthless and suppressive fire works much better when in a team.

 

I have seen the human body absorb a lot of damage and not quit. I am sure you have as well. I don't want to rely on 5-6 shots to stop one actor, let alone 2 or more. I don't want to have to empty my gun into a badguy to end a threat. When you add in the movement, chaos, adrenelaine etc... of a real critical incident, 5-6 shots may realistically only yield 1 hit (If you keep with the standard 80% degradation from you normal training standard while engaged in a real shooting)

 

Cover, concealment, tactics all important. But even behind cover why reload if you don't have too? I know it is easier to reload a Semi while keeping SA than a revolver.

 

Yes, the scenarios I listed were all one shooter incidents. Situations that could have conceivably been stopped by a single CCW carrier in the right place at the right time. While you may have felt comfortable engaging that single threat with 5-6 rounds, can you honestly say that you would not have felt better with more ammo in the gun? Especially in the moment when you are not 100% sure the perpetrator is acting alone?

 

Other than the ammo related malfunctions I have witnessed or am aware of with a revolver, the others I have seen could not be fixed by pulling the trigger again. Timing issues, damaged trigger/trigger guard (this may happen if you use a model 10 as an impact weapon - anecdotal story with photo evidence from long ago. I did not witness this), broken internals/springs. It happens, and usually at the worst time too. Nothing made by man is infallible. Everything will eventually break. The idea that a quality Revolver that is propery maintained is more reliable than a modern quality Semiauto that is properly maintained is silly.

 

My father was an airdale in Vietnam. He was issued a .38 when on flying duties, for the reasons you disclosed. Now that you mention it, It is interesting that the Military has gotten away from the revolvers and moved onto the semi autos.... but... I digress.

 

The 30-40 threat scenario was based on a stage in a competition I was at with Ray last year. It is not based on reality and no, I would never engage 30-40 targets alone with Tank let alone a pistol. it was meant to provoke thought regarding the need for more than one round to stop a threat, and the fact that you can not predict if the bad guy will drop like he was hit by Mjolnir from one round or soak up 15 pills and keep fighting. As I am sure you know, both have happened before and both will happen again.

 

Yes, I carry a G22 at work with a G27 or PM9 as a BUG and sometimes an LCP as well. Off duty I carry a G35, G22, or G23 with the same BUGs.

I asked if revolvers where "dead for HD/CCW" and you already said no. So your on my side as well on this issue.

I got a permit ray let me get that 686!

Nope. In my opinion they are "dead" choices for me. I will never choose one for either role unless the choice is taken from my hands.

 

I also see them declining in the stated roles in general, for law abiding folk and criminal alike. I think in 9 years, I have taken 1 revolver (a .22 H&R) off the street. I have taken over a dozen semi-autos.

 

Just because I stated they are still viable tools does not mean that I don't think there are better options out there for this particular job (protection against 2 legged predators) or that I think that they are on the decline in the roles you are asking about due to the reasons I have attempted to explain above.

Ray, I am not saying that no one should carry a revolver for SD. I am saying that it is becomeing a less prevelant choice for many reasons. among them are capacity, bulk, reload speed, more dificult to shoot. You asked if they are dead for CCW/HD and I think they are on their way out. New shooters don't have the time, money or attention span to really learn to shoot a revolver with that long DA trigger pull. New shooters are being introduced to the life by folks that only know Semi Autos. New shooters will choose what they know when the decide what to buy for themselves. If you like to carry a revolver brother, go for it. I will stick to my semi. I am also a LEO. Been on the job for 10 years now and am currently a Patrol supervisor in a Municipal Agency. I have been on a regional SWAT team and a FA Tactics Instructor for 8 years and counting, and I disagree that a 4" .357 is the best do it all handgun made. I learned on a Semi. I carry a Semi everyday, I practice on a Semi regularly. I flat shoot my Glock better than my Model 15 revolver all day long. Why would I think that a 4" .357 is better?

I'll start off saying I think a a mid-size Glock 19/23/30 are the best handguns for most LE to use. Simple, reliable, and more importantly big enough to shoot well yet small enough to conceal. This gives the non-gun enthusiast LEO the ability to carry the same gun on and off duty. Okay thats out of the way. Apparently you don't want to spend the time to learn how to use a revolver either. I don't dismiss the banjo as a useful instrument because I don't want to learn how to play one. I attended FBI SWAT School in 1979 (and several "tactical" schools after) and made several hundred entries before you started on the job. Just mentioned that because you thought it was important for you to do so. Does that make me an expert? Don't know, it depends who's asking. My selection of a 4" 357 as the best all around gun is base on several factors. Not too big too conceal but big enough to shoot well and a wide range of OTC power levels of ammo to meet most needs (can't do that with any semi-auto). Plus I can shoot it well. You could too if you took the time to learn. I don't expect my choice to be everyone's.

Yes, I know small revolvers (J-Frame, LCR, etc..) are still being bought. But, from what I am seeing many are being relegated to BUG status, not primary CCW. Of all of my Cop friends, old and young, I only know 3 that even occasionally carry a revolver as a primary CCW piece. One carries a 686, one a S&W in .45ACP (I dont know the model) the other a Ruger SP101. But, they all also carry a semi as well. I also am seeing a lot of these smaller revolvers being bought as an afterthought. The "Hey, I have a permit left and I dont have a revolver yet. I want one." So it is bought, it goes in the safe and occasionally comes to the range, or it gets stashed in the house as a HD piece.

Once again if all your cop buddies carry semi-autos it most likely is because that's all they know (like you). When we're talking CCW we're not just talking LEOs and we're not just talking NJ. Go to the rest of the country where a carry permit is a shall issue item and you will see many people opt for a J frame revolver or small 380 like a LCP or Kel Tec. They're small, easily concealed, and many are satisfied with their personal ability to produce pie plate accuracy at 7 yards. The 5-6 rounds these carry will meet 99.99999% of their needs if they should ever have to use it. Fortunately, most just have to display it to make the bad guy quit. I find your comment regarding small frame revolvers being bought as an afterthought amusing. I think S&W, Ruger, and Taurus know a lot more about marketing revolvers than everyone on this forum put together. I seriously doubt they spent millions of dollars for R&D of small frame revolvers with people just buying them as an "afterthought".

I know that shootng a revolver is not magic. It is the result of practiving the proper fundamentals. When I was in the Police Academy in the 2000's I saw people who had never fired a handgun shoot perfect Qualification scores and take the Firearms award with a Semi (A Beretta 92 at that). The Fundamentals executed properly, whether with a Semi or Wheelgun, will carry you through. (And for those reading this that never had to qualify, your quaification score has absolutly nothing to do with real world use of a firearm. It is merely a test of basic marksmanship and weapons handling that has very little to do with fighting with a firearm) Oh, and I agree that it isnt the trigger weight that makes a revolver harder to master than a semi, it is the length of the trigger pull. I don't know anyone that can shoot a DA gun more accurately or faster than a SA gun given equal amount of time on both systems.?

You fail to recognize that we old timers learned on those nasty old revolvers shooting with that long DA trigger instead of the easier to use semi-autos. IIRC about 30% of our qual score was shooting from the 50 yd line. That was done with both 2" and 4" revolvers. We also had to qual on a bullseye target. Does that make us smarter or having more natural talent? No over the years they just dumbed up the course of fire and adopted handguns (semi-autos) that are easier to shoot. You are surprised that whoever took the firearms award was shooting a Beretta 92. I have considerable experience with this firearm and I'm guessing your surprise is the result of not knowing how to transition from the DA to SA pull properly. If you know how to do this your accuracy doesn't suffer. You are correct in saying quals have nothing to do with genuine combat shooting. NYPD (they keep the best records I know of) proved this long ago (like the early 70s). Jeff Cooper once said gunfighting is 95% mental. More on that later. If you're talking about DA only semis vs SA semis I'm not about to defend DAO semis. No DA on any semi can come close to the DA on a revolver. You may not know anyone who can shoot a DA better than a SA but many PPC shooters convert their revolvers to DAO and they're shooting from 50 yds. I mentioned this in another thread but if the long DA pull on a revolver is so slow why would all the speed shooters (who do shoot accurately) use DA revolvers? Shouldn't they be using 1911s? It may be that the firing cycle (shot to shot) is faster with a revolver than a semi-auto?

I wouldn't say I am way off. In fact, I would say that my history is pretty right on. I said the reason for the second gun was the slow reload from the dump pouch. I understand that carrying a semi as a backup was not that wide spread, but I also understand that it did hapen. I didn't go into specs for NYPD Authorized service weapon as that had no bearing what so ever on the topc of the NY Reload. I also know, and thus is the real point to be made here, that as the semi autos came to be authorized, (my buddy from TARU carried a first gen S&W auto as an authorized duty gun way before the G19 program) the need for the NY Reload diminished greatly.).

"You need a quick history lesson on the NY Reload brother." You wrote 4 sentences and half of them were misinformation. I doubt that's how you write your reports at work. You were not right on you were way off. You didnt say carrying a semi was not widespread you said that's what they all carried for a second gun. The fact that only revolvers were authorized for over 99% of NYPD does have bearing on this issue. If you were on NYPD then what do you think they carried for a second gun? A revolver that was authorized or a semi that was not? Do your guys carry unauthorized backup guns?

As to being shot first, with that mentality, why carry a gun? I don't plan on being shot first. If I am I don't plan on dying. If I do, I don't plan on doing it without a fight. I understand that it may not work out that way, but I am not going to plan for it. Spray and pray is a waste of ammo, and you will have precious little until the fight is over. Fast misses are worthless and suppressive fire works much better when in a team. I have seen the human body absorb a lot of damage and not quit. I am sure you have as well. I don't want to rely on 5-6 shots to stop one actor, let alone 2 or more. I don't want to have to empty my gun into a badguy to end a threat. When you add in the movement, chaos, adrenelaine etc... of a real critical incident, 5-6 shots may realistically only yield 1 hit (If you keep with the standard 80% degradation from you normal training standard while engaged in a real shooting) Cover, concealment, tactics all important. But even behind cover why reload if you don't have too? I know it is easier to reload a Semi while keeping SA than a revolver.)

As a tactics instructor you need to be honest with yourself about a very simple fact. You may be doing everything 100% right and be the first one shot. Not something you tell the troops but something that can happen. If you are behind cover you should be tactically (partially) reloading your handgun no matter what it is.

Yes, the scenarios I listed were all one shooter incidents. Situations that could have conceivably been stopped by a single CCW carrier in the right place at the right time. While you may have felt comfortable engaging that single threat with 5-6 rounds, can you honestly say that you would not have felt better with more ammo in the gun? Especially in the moment when you are not 100% sure the perpetrator is acting alone?)

I never heard anyone who has been in a fight say they had too much ammo. However, if I find myself in a situation and have a revolver I'm too busy planning on what I'm going to do and don't feel severely disadvantaged as you would with a revolver.

Other than the ammo related malfunctions I have witnessed or am aware of with a revolver, the others I have seen could not be fixed by pulling the trigger again. Timing issues, damaged trigger/trigger guard (this may happen if you use a model 10 as an impact weapon - anecdotal story with photo evidence from long ago. I did not witness this), broken internals/springs. It happens, and usually at the worst time too. Nothing made by man is infallible. Everything will eventually break. The idea that a quality Revolver that is propery maintained is more reliable than a modern quality Semiauto that is properly maintained is silly.

The revolver eliminates the feeding and extraction issues as these are not done during the firing cycle. It also has a simpler manual of arms. If I give you a revolver you don't spend much time figuring how to make it work. You need to at least look at the semi to see what it is. Your list of revolver malfunctions illustrates your lack of knowledge of revolvers. They don't magically go out of time, short of some catastrophic failure. Timing is usually affected over a period of time. As far as the rest of the malfunctions, these can happen to a semi-auto as well. I'm not claiming a revolver is more reliable than a semi-auto, it just has some good points a semi doesn't.

My father was an airdale in Vietnam. He was issued a .38 when on flying duties, for the reasons you disclosed. Now that you mention it, It is interesting that the Military has gotten away from the revolvers and moved onto the semi autos.... but... I digress.).)

The military got out of revolvers for two reasons. First, so we would have a handgun round compatible with other NATO countries. Two, was to standardize on one handgun vs the dozen or so they had in use. Number one made it the perfect time to do so.

The 30-40 threat scenario was based on a stage in a competition I was at with Ray last year. It is not based on reality and no, I would never engage 30-40 targets alone with Tank let alone a pistol. it was meant to provoke thought regarding the need for more than one round to stop a threat, and the fact that you can not predict if the bad guy will drop like he was hit by Mjolnir from one round or soak up 15 pills and keep fighting. As I am sure you know, both have happened before and both will happen again. Yes, I carry a G22 at work with a G27 or PM9 as a BUG and sometimes an LCP as well. Off duty I carry a G35, G22, or G23 with the same BUGs.

Then why did you present it as a threat situation? Okay, I'm done.

Thanks GRIZ

 

Well put together.