New video from MAC, interesting...

Believe it or not, but in this test .308 doesn't impress at all, unless you fire all mag.

 

Intresting but rifle rounds usually penetrate better when they've gone down range a bit. Julian Hatcher demonstrated this about 50 years ago shooting a 44 mag pistol and a 30-06 (M2 ball) into wood. At 25 yds the 44 far surpassed the penetration that of the 30-06. When shooting at 200 yds the 30-06 penetrated much further than it did at 25 yds and IIRC nore than the 44 did at 25 yds. The 44 of course penetrated at 200 much less than it did at 25 as you would expect.

 

IIRC the reason the 30-06 penetrates more at 200 yds than it does at 25 is due to optimum stability achieved at range. This is when the spin imparted by the rifling matches the velocity of the bullet keeping it from tumbling when it hits something resulting in better penetration.

 

I imagine the same applies to all rifle rounds but I've never seen a tesr like Hatcher's with other calibers. Penetration of those tested in the video would be better if he did his tests at a longer range.

I agree with Griz. I've put 30-06, 308, 5.45, and .223 into .5" a steel plate from 100 yards. The 5.45 leaves a dimple the size of pea, the .223 does about the same. The .308 leaves a pock mark about the width and depth of a marble and the 30-06 is even more impressive. And that was with cheapo target ammo.

 

"So what did we learn out here this afternoon"

 

Not much, except your [guy in video] testing methodology is ridiculous. Who walks around the woods firing at trees?

Im with Griz too. When I fired my 7.62x39 at 50 yards at a target using 1/2" osb on a tree almost 2' wide, it not only easily penetrated it, but went pretty far into the next tree.

5.56 NATO penetrates less in building materials (sheet rock, 2x4s, etc) at close range than 9mm Parabellum out of a MP5. The 5.56 will penetrate most body armor from close range out to some range. The MP5 won't. The FBI and other LE agencies have known this for about 15 years. I hat to upset the "militarization of the police" people but this has been the real reason for LE to be moving away from the MP5 and adopting the M4. A more effective cartridge capable of defeating most body armor yet less penetrating whenn used as a entry weapon.

5.56 NATO penetrates less in building materials (sheet rock, 2x4s, etc) at close range than 9mm Parabellum out of a MP5. The 5.56 will penetrate most body armor from close range out to some range. The MP5 won't. The FBI and other LE agencies have known this for about 15 years. I hat to upset the "militarization of the police" people but this has been the real reason for LE to be moving away from the MP5 and adopting the M4. A more effective cartridge capable of defeating most body armor yet less penetrating whenn used as a entry weapon.

 

thats why for an interior self defense situation.... AR15 for me all day long..

I have a hunch this guy isn't popular with the tree-hugger, anti-logging, "save-the-spotted owl" crowds.

 

(I'm glad he corrected himself on diameter vs. circumference.)

I agree with you guys: 5 meters is close range, but 200-300 hundred meters in a forest is not realistic.

How far you can see there? It would be more like 20-30 meters at most.

As long as military plays in *stan sandbox - long distances might be practical. But if we are talking about other places (remember Vietnam?) where wooden areas are common, the game has different rules.

Russians developed 5.45x39 for their own needs and most of places within area of their interests have a lot of trees.

 

Think about your own needs. Well, obviously the only use in NJ for all the shown calibers is target shooting - what else you can do?

Home defense? I don't know... Unless you live in the middle of nowhere (not that many places like that left in NJ, if any) and have no neighbors within at least a mile around you - too risky. Handgun would do much better job. Or shotgun.

Only SHTF left. Pure fantasy, of course, but if you will have an engagement in such event, it would be less that 50 meters and most likely in a wooded area.

Why 50 meters or less? Well, lowlives who might come to take your food/whatever else, are less likely to to arrange for snipers to take you out, they will just come in and start an assault.

Also, it might be hard to explain to LE/jury how killing someone 200-300 meters away was a self defense.

Think about your own needs. Well, obviously the only use in NJ for all the shown calibers is target shooting - what else you can do?

Home defense? I don't know... Unless you live in the middle of nowhere (not that many places like that left in NJ, if any) and have no neighbors within at least a mile around you - too risky. Handgun would do much better job. Or shotgun.

 

 

as hard as it might be to grasp... 556 out of a 16in carbine is a far better choice for home defense.. it is far less likely to over penetrate AND cause damage..

as hard as it might be to grasp... 556 out of a 16in carbine is a far better choice for home defense.. it is far less likely to over penetrate AND cause damage..

 

far less likely to over penetrate AND cause damage than handgun or shotgun? I think bird shot in shotgun is safest for urban area.

 

 

I don't know for sure about 556x45 but if memory serves me right, 545x39 from standard AK74 has effective range of 600 meters and killing power at 1200 meters.

7.62x54R out of PKM has effective range 1500 meters and killing power at - "you better know where you shooting, son" - over 2500 meters.

I would think that 556x45 from typical AR15 should be able to kill a bystander at 1000 meters. Not all the rounds will end up in the wall/floor, not to mention you might have an outside engagement.

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I'm really happy I subscribed to MAC. I've been subscribed to a few other gun channels on YouTube and I think he's got the best one. Nutnfancy was good, but he's gotten too verbose and preachy.

far less likely to over penetrate AND cause damage than handgun or shotgun? I think bird shot in shotgun is safest for urban area.

 

 

I don't know for sure about 556x45 but if memory serves me right, 545x39 from standard AK74 has effective range of 600 meters and killing power at 1200 meters.

7.62x54R out of PKM has effective range 1500 meters and killing power at - "you better know where you shooting, son" - over 2500 meters.

I would think that 556x45 from typical AR15 should be able to kill a bystander at 1000 meters. Not all the rounds will end up in the wall/floor, not to mention you might have an outside engagement.

 

why would you shoot a person trying to kill you with a projectile designed to kill a bird?

that is illogical..

 

 

the reason that 556 is a reasonable interior weapon is because sure it can go through a wall and sure it could still hurt someone.. but a 55 gr bullet has a lot less mass than a 9mm or 40 S&W round.. when it hits interior structures it is going to become a lot less stable a lot faster.. a single BB from a BB gun can likely penetrate drywall.. but that is not relevant when evaluating the damage on the other side of the wall..

 

if you are killed by an AR15 at 1000 meters it was your day to die.. that is a VERY unlikely shot.. further.. at interior distances.. a shotgun load is not really going to be spreading out.. someone was shooting some federal 12 gauge at the range the other day and there was literally NO spread out to 15 yards.. the ammo was punching a solid hole in the target.. meaning that the shot was hitting the target in one solid chunk.. which again is going to have a lot more mass than a 55 gr bullet...

 

at any rate the ultimate factor is how much the wall will disrupt the round.. ANY round COULD kill an individual on the other side..

far less likely to over penetrate AND cause damage than handgun or shotgun? I think bird shot in shotgun is safest for urban area.

 

 

I don't know for sure about 556x45 but if memory serves me right, 545x39 from standard AK74 has effective range of 600 meters and killing power at 1200 meters.

 

Your jokin right? Can kill at 1200 meters? Assuming it can stay stable to reach that range, it will have bled all its energy on the way to the target. It may be able to reach that range, but I highly doubt it would kill if it even hit the target.

 

There are tests that show .223 using a soft point round will penetrate dry wall, but will fragment to the point it poses no real risk of over penetration.

 

 

Vini, so far everything you have posted in this thread seems about 98% wrong LOL.

Vini, so far everything you have posted in this thread seems about 98% wrong LOL.

 

Oh, you counted post 11..

LOL!

To be clear, I hope you've noticed that I've separated "effective range" and "killing power". When I say "killing power", I'm not talking effective aiming at this distance. I'm talking about shooting in wrong direction and bunch of kids playing 1000 meters away.

 

Just for the sake of argument I'm asking former local military guys.

The answer: "550m is effective range for a point target and 800m for an area target and max range 3600m"

I don't know what exactly "max range 3600m" stands for, but "effective range for an area target 800m" seems to be logical.

I couldn't find Army Manual yet, but 550m/800m/3600m is all over the internet.

Will update once I have located Manual in PDF format.

 

In the midtime try to think for a moment, if effective range for an area target 800m, would killing power at 1000m be so far fetched?

In the midtime try to think for a moment, if effective range for an area target 800m, would killing power at 1000m be so far fetched?

 

my understanding of "area target" is it is akin to suppressive fire.. you are firing into a given area.. you may hit a combatants leg.. arm.. torso.. etc.. as opposed to "point target" where you are shooting a specific location specific target...

 

556 does not have the capability to even be considered at 1000m.. a round could hit.. it could cause damage.. with an unobstructed 1000 yards.. but it is highly unlikely... at 500 yards it is already dropped in energy from 1000 ft lbs to 300 ft lbs.. do the math.. not much longer before the tiny 55 grain bullet has nothing left..

 

with that said.. 3600? NO WAY..

 

 

I don't care if it was feet, it's not going to happen let alone yards, do you realize that 3600 yard is over 2 miles??

 

 

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If your question is can an unaimed projectile kill you at 1000 yds, the answer is yes. But the relevance is iirrelevant! There are many different variables and considerations, to many to even begin to list. What Travis Hailey did. for example, with aimed 5.56 fire at 800 yds may have no relevance whatsoever on what you can do at 300! Riddle me this. Why can I make an effective aimed shot at 1800 meters in one location, same rifle, optics, load, and not another location?

Vini, so far everything you have posted in this thread seems about 98% wrong LOL.

Shane45, if you don't agree with something or don't understand something - it doesn't make it wrong.

 

 

Well, we all got carried away from topic to argument if 5.56x45 can be fatal at 1000 meters. Let's not get carried to another topic.

All started here:

I would think that 556x45 from typical AR15 should be able to kill a bystander at 1000 meters.

It wasn't about accurate aimed placement, it was about safety of others while you are using your high power rifle.

Fact: US military teaches soldiers that M16A* rifles can be used for an area target with effective range 800m.

I couldn't find actual manual, but 3 guys with US military background said/wrote about same thing: 550/800/3600, where 3600m is maximum possible distance the bullet can fly if pointed under correct angle.

This information is beaten into every recruit at boot camp.

Comes to you as a surprise? Don't believe it?

Believe whatever you want, just have some basic idea what you are doing.

Vini, Shane has probably forgotten more information than most will ever know just in case you didn't know how knowledgable he is on the subject.

 

 

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Shane45, if you don't agree with something or don't understand something - it doesn't make it wrong.

 

 

Well, we all got carried away from topic to argument if 5.56x45 can be fatal at 1000 meters. Let's not get carried to another topic.

All started here:

 

It wasn't about accurate aimed placement, it was about safety of others while you are using your high power rifle.

Fact: US military teaches soldiers that M16A* rifles can be used for an area target with effective range 800m.

I couldn't find actual manual, but 3 guys with US military background said/wrote about same thing: 550/800/3600, where 3600m is maximum possible distance the bullet can fly if pointed under correct angle.

This information is beaten into every recruit at boot camp.

Comes to you as a surprise? Don't believe it?

Believe whatever you want, just have some basic idea what you are doing.

 

someone can tell you it is 5000m

 

math tells me that if a projectile has spent roughly 75% of its energy and dropped almost 4ft traveling 500 yards that there is basically no way it will ever reach 3600m

someone can tell you it is 5000m

 

math tells me that if a projectile has spent roughly 75% of its energy and dropped almost 4ft traveling 500 yards that there is basically no way it will ever reach 3600m

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?

 

.243 BC, 3259 fps muzzle velocity gives theoretical range of 3700 yards.

Vini, the problem here is that you simply do not understand the answers being given. Your question, if a 5.56 round is lethal at distance beyond aiming the shot. Your concern is how big of a fallout area do you need to be safe. To determine said safe area it has to encompass ALL possibilities. So I ask you again:

 

Why can I make an effective aimed shot at 1800 meters in one location, same rifle, optics, load, and not another location?

And just as a point of interest, a 75 gr 5.56 at 1000 yds is about the same as a 130 grn 38 special at 15 yds.in terms of energy.

I don't know how to use it but I tossed in 50BMG and set the yards at 4000

 

It showed a bullet drop of what looks like just over 600 feet at 3600 yards.

 

Not sure if I did it right, but we shooting off mountains?

 

 

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Why can I make an effective aimed shot at 1800 meters in one location, same rifle, optics, load, and not another location?

I can imagine only 50cal rifle in hands of VERY good sniper to "make an effective aimed shot at 1800 meters", but it's not point of this question, right?

 

You must be talking about barriers and obstacles?

Weather (rain/snow/wind), time of day and angle of aim would have influence too.

 

Where you are going with this?

 

Are you trying to say that it's safe to shoot in your house because most of the bullets will stay in walls?

All of them will be well placed in stress situation?

None of them possibly can go out of open/broken window or door and not lend in a tree outside?

Isn't it obvious when given killing ability of a bullet, we are talking about open space?

 

Would you point me to "about 98% wrong"?

Give HD a cigar He is on to it. So if we go to 10,000 feet shooting at an angle with a tail wind, the same 5.56 projo at 1000 giving the same energy as a 38 at 15 is now only 10 ft/lbs of energy less at 2000 yds! Its all in the variables. So whatever the "safe" distance is, it would have to take every concievable variable into consideration.