It was indeed a muzzle brake. I had called FN customer support previously to confirm this but it's also clearly stated on their website description that it is a brake thats installed.

See here - http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/commercial/carbines/fs2000-series/fs2000-tactical/

 

I also explained that even if it was a hider, the FS2K technically does not have a pistol grip so a hider would have been the other permitted "evil" feature.

 

I've seen FS2K's sold in-stores here in NJ (I think RTSP had one last year) so I know they're legal to sell and own in our crazy state.

I didn't think we could have any flash hiders in this state.

I wouldn't wory too much. FN is very aware of the "terms" of different states and should clarify things for the FFL. Otherwise, and it will cost you a bit, you can have the 01 FFL send it to one of the forum FFLs that are also 07 FFLs for conversion.

I don't want to mention the FFL's name on the thread as they're just being cautious and I don't mean to bring any negative attention to them, but I'm kind of at a loss. I've seen FS2K's (same exact one as the one I got) sold in-stores here in NJ (I think RTSP had one last year) so I know they're legal to sell and own in our crazy state.

But don't you want to let us know who it is so we don't go through the same situation????

I didn't think we could have any flash hiders in this state.

 

Here's the language from what is defined as not permitted -

A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

 

This means that if it is a semi-automatic rifle and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal.

 

(1) A folding or telescoping stock;

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(3) A bayonet mount;

(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;

(5) A grenade launcher

 

So technically, since the FS2K has no pistol grip, the hider would be the 1 allowed feature.

The FFL has ZERO business contacting the BATF for this! Who is this FFL??? We're talking NEW JERSEY's restrictions on evil features!!!

Worst case, have that FFL ship to another FFL in NJ that doesn't have his head up his ass.

The FFL has ZERO business contacting the BATF for this! Who is this FFL??? We're talking NEW JERSEY's restrictions on evil features!!!

 

The ATF rules quite nicely if they define something as a brake or a flash hider, and far more knowledgeable than the typical answer you get from state police.

 

Alex... it was indeed a flash hider, no doubts about it. It was an open chamber.

 

http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-fs2000-accessories-mods/7889-illustrated-guide-removing-fs2000-flash-hider-dimensions.html

 

Should of said something that you belonged on the forum. =)

Worst case, have that FFL ship to another FFL in NJ that doesn't have his head up his ass.

 

Chris.... I was there to witness this situation today.... and I can promise you, the shop owner does not have his head up his ass.

 

I am 125% certain it is a flash hider.... there was nothing "brake/compensator" of it.

 

The question is... will the FFL play the list/evil feature game.... or if the State police gets involved will they care to count the features.

 

 

 

 

Edit... just looked at FN's website, and it does say Muzzle Break.... however it is a completely open design, with pics you can see. There was no chamber in the break. If the ATF declared that device a break, I am sure there would be no issues.

The ATF rules quite nicely if they define something as a brake or a flash hider, and far more knowledgeable than the typical answer you get from state police.

 

Alex... it was indeed a flash hider, no doubts about it. It was an open chamber.

 

http://fnforum.net/f...dimensions.html

 

Should of said something that you belonged on the forum. =)

 

Regarding the FN forum link... That particular poster called it a FH, but i can find an equal amount of posts where other posters call it a brake.

 

the Muzzle device in question. =)

Edit... just looked at FN's website, and it does say Muzzle Break.... however it is a completely open design, with pics you can see. There was no chamber in the break. If the ATF declared that device a break, I am sure there would be no issues.

 

Duh. Didn't make the connection that was you. I assumed you were the "old" guy on the left in your profile pic... heh.

So like I said, I'm at a loss.

FN states its a muzzle brake.

Other NJ shops sell the same rifle.

No other "NJ compliant" version is made except for ones shipped with 10rd mags...

Hopefully FN clears it up w/ him on the phone tomorrow.

Chris.... I was there to witness this situation today.... and I can promise you, the shop owner does not have his head up his ass.

 

I am 125% certain it is a flash hider.... there was nothing "brake/compensator" of it.

 

The question is... will the FFL play the list/evil feature game.... or if the State police gets involved will they care to count the features.

 

 

 

 

Edit... just looked at FN's website, and it does say Muzzle Break.... however it is a completely open design, with pics you can see. There was no chamber in the break. If the ATF declared that device a break, I am sure there would be no issues.

 

I saw the one picture from that forum you linked, and you are absolutely correct! The end it open wider than a bullet = hider. So, the FN definitely wears a hider and must be misnamed a brake in their literature. It's all about the sumation of NJ evil features now, and FN will not wade in on that. It's up to the FFL now.

Yeah, the guy speaking with Chris, I was either in the black tshirt or the Grey/Black/Blue Descent Ski jacket and white hat. =)

a typical NJ Compesnator/brake.

 

 

noticed the closed front port.

 

the Muzzle device in question. =)

 

Well, that certainly cannot be argued!

a typical NJ Compesnator/brake.

 

 

noticed the closed front port.

 

Keep in mind, other stores sell this same rifle as well as countless other owners here in NJ who already have it...

 

Perhaps it comes down to counting the 'evil' features like you say. In that case... and in your opinion, wouldn't the FS2K *still* fall within NJ guidelines for compliance?

I'd say it is potentially ambiguous. It has a closed bottom and slanted front. Which can make it work like a slant brake. The open front says hider to me though and wouldn't want to argue it in court.

 

That being said, if it doesn't reduce flash, it isn't a flash hider. That would come down to the structure inside.

 

Other ffls might be comfortable proving their opinion or have something to back it up as a brake.

Ok.. Maks, if by appearance and definition, it should be labeled as a hider, would you then say I should not be transferred the FS2K?

Keep in mind, other stores sell this same rifle as well as countless other owners here in NJ who already have it...

 

Perhaps it comes down to counting the 'evil' features like you say. In that case... and in your opinion, wouldn't the FS2K *still* fall within NJ guidelines for compliance?

 

Doesn't matter a hoot about our layman's opinions. It's all on the individual FFL. They're the license holder, and whether or not they feel comfortable with counting. We all know some will not. You will probably want to check with the FFLs here that do NJ-conversions, and if the FFL you're dealing with doesn't agree on count maybe he'd transfer to one of them.

IMHO, it does not matter if it is a flash hider or a brake, that is the ONLY evil feature.

IMHO, it does not matter if it is a flash hider or a brake, that is the ONLY evil feature.

^^^^THIS^^^^^

Chris.... I was there to witness this situation today.... and I can promise you, the shop owner does not have his head up his ass.

 

I am 125% certain it is a flash hider.... there was nothing "brake/compensator" of it.

 

The question is... will the FFL play the list/evil feature game.... or if the State police gets involved will they care to count the features.

 

 

 

 

Edit... just looked at FN's website, and it does say Muzzle Break.... however it is a completely open design, with pics you can see. There was no chamber in the break. If the ATF declared that device a break, I am sure there would be no issues.

 

Thanks Maks, If I saw that one I would assume it's a flash hider too. Some of the muzzle brakes I see really are questionable just by looks. Many of them describe themselves as flash hiding muzzle brakes. The FSC brake is lucky that they put it out during the Clinton AWB and the ATF had to issue a ruling on it. So at least you can have a piece of paper claiming your FSC556 that looks like a flash hider is really classified as a brake. And I don't even know if New Jersey adheres to Federal standards on determining flash hider/brake. Perhaps I am being conservative, but I wouldn't want to argue the evil features with an inquiring officer. Maybe Shane at TJ Sporting could swap it for a Surefire 556K or something nice. It will suck about the extra costs though.

plenty of brakes out there with open muzzles.

 

my gripe would be that he otherwise indicated he would sell the fn2k and has sold them before(sold out), and now he won't.

IMHO, it does not matter if it is a flash hider or a brake, that is the ONLY evil feature.

There's your answer!! have him ship it to PK90!

In all likelyhood, I am sure the printout from FN saying it is a break is enough CYA. I also agree it is the only one evil feature.... however it is up to the dealer, and most FFL's I would venture would feel the same way.

 

IE... how many items are legal, but NJSP would think they are not? IE.... recall the M1 Carbine type rifles? AK's, I would venture to say if you call and ask if Flash Hiders are ok in NJ, they will tell you no.

 

So Paul... would you sell it with a flash hider?

Absolutely.

 

ETA, I used to own one.

If I wanted to demonstrate to someone the absurdity of N.J.'s gun laws and the bs we have to worry about, I would show them this thread.

IMO , as others said the tactical tuna FS2K doesn't have any other evil features, so a hider/threaded barrel is OK. I've also seen arguments that a muzzle device with just holes facing upwards regardless of the opening size on the end is a brake, not a hider. Hiders typically have vents 360 degrees. But who really knows. I doubt NJ even knows since they never gave us a real definition of what a "flash hider" is or not.

IMO , as others said the tactical tuna FS2K doesn't have any other evil features, so a hider/threaded barrel is OK. I've also seen arguments that a muzzle device with just holes facing upwards regardless of the opening size on the end is a brake, not a hider. Hiders typically have vents 360 degrees. But who really knows. I doubt NJ even knows since they never gave us a real definition of what a "flash hider" is or not.

 

LOL. During today's convo, the FFL mentioned speaking with NJSP, and they were asking him if a BarrelShroud is the same thing is a hand guard/rail on an AR..... so yeah.

 

Typically in these cases, this is when having a letter from someone is good thing to have.

 

Look, lets be honest... in all likelyhood, this will NEVER be an issue, however how much time and money would it cost the FFL to educate the NJSP and the AG what the laws actually say. IE... M1 carbine that came out or the AK sporter.... AG did not give a rat's ass what the law said and told the dealers flat out... you can't sell them.

LOL. During today's convo, the FFL mentioned speaking with NJSP, and they were asking him if a BarrelShroud is the same thing is a hand guard/rail on an AR..... so yeah.

 

Typically in these cases, this is when having a letter from someone is good thing to have.

 

Look, lets be honest... in all likelyhood, this will NEVER be an issue, however how much time and money would it cost the FFL to educate the NJSP and the AG what the laws actually say. IE... M1 carbine that came out or the AK sporter.... AG did not give a rat's ass what the law said and told the dealers flat out... you can't sell them.

 

Yep, with any EBR , there is always a chance of prosecution. The DA can claim "flash hider" , defendant claims "muzzle brake", both bring in expert witnesses, jury decides. At a minimum it would cost the poor victim tons of $$$. Its always best to stack stuff in your favor, so if a muzzle device is ambiguous to us "gun nuts", you may want to change it for something more solid. Good thing the FS2K has the whole thing covered by not having any other evil features, so technically a person can stick on a flash hider 12 ft long.

Yep, with any EBR , there is always a chance of prosecution. The DA can claim "flash hider" , defendant claims "muzzle brake", both bring in expert witnesses, jury decides. At a minimum it would cost the poor victim tons of $$$. Its always best to stack stuff in your favor, so if a muzzle device is ambiguous to us "gun nuts", you may want to change it for something more solid. Good thing the FS2K has the whole thing covered by not having any other evil features, so technically a person can stick on a flash hider 12 ft long.

 

But then try proving that it only has 1 evil feature.... as it has no "pistol" grip. And then the reference to the Feinstein bill which calls a grip anything, bullpup or not. Try proving to a jury that it is less evil because it is a bull pup and a thumbhole.

 

I would not blame an FFL if they did not want to take that risk.