HE, well cudoes to you for spending a chuck of time posting this...

 

I only "attacked" you because you attacked "me" first - I am sure you would acknowledge that.

 

It is obvious you have credentials, that we all here may make use of; it is unfortunate that your arrogance and continued attacks above will detract from that...For example, making fun of the fact that I watched a Training-DVD. - High Exposure - Really? - how old are you, 10?

 

I will leave you with this last advise:

1) Your police training is fine and all good, but most of your comments are obvious, bloviating, overstatements (eg 45 acp isn't a guranteed to stop 1 shot. -We all know this)...

2) Approaching room clearing with a team vs an individual are 2 exteemly different things - I don't have to go to the Police Acadamy to realize that.

 

I think your arrogance far outwieghs your ability to give practical advise to a "civiian".

 

Sad really.

You still don't get it and that's OK. I didn't attack you at all. I simply stated that what you said was wrong.

 

I don't care if you think I am a nice guy, or if I am an arrogant prick. When you post something so monumentally wrong on a forum such as this you should expect to get called on it. That's how this forum thing works, especially if it is run professionally like this one. It isn't personal and it wasn't an attack. I used a damned Adam Sandler quote to convey some humor into the discussion for crying out loud.

 

I wasn't making fun of you for watching a Magpul Video. I was saying that it takes more than watching the "Chris and Travis Show" to make you competent. I have watched most of the Magpul videos as well, hell, I even own a couple. (It is funny though, I have yet to see the new "Dynamic HD: The Way of the Tactical .45 and Machete" one )The Magpul videos are great entertainment and a decent training supplement but I will never base my tactics solely on what I saw on a DVD or base my opinion strictly on what someone spouts in their training video.

 

CA, I must admit, I do find it interesting that you haven't once responded to my argument against your chosen methods or how you came to these decisions, only the fact that I was "mean" to you.

 

Your police training is fine and all good, but most of your comments are obvious, bloviating, overstatements (eg 45 acp isn't a guranteed to stop 1 shot. -We all know this)...

 

"Obvious?" if what I said was obvious, I wouldn't have had to say it. As to the .45 example you posted, you touted the .45 as the best thing out there for a 1 stop shot, not me.

 

"Bloviating?" Thank you. Some may think it verbose, but I try to be articulate and thorough when I post. I do make some typos, but that's the price you pay using an iPad.

 

"Overstatements"? You mean like the ridiculous statement that started this whole thing - "A shotgun, a trench knife, and a .45 pistol are the best HD weapons ever because that is what they used in WWI" kind of overstatement? Or do you mean the ones where you state that tactical training doesn't apply to HD situations? Or the ones where you advocate shooting from the hip as the way to go for CQB?

 

"Approaching room clearing with a team vs an individual are 2 exteemly different things - I don't have to go to the Police Acadamy to realize that."

There you go making statements that you have no frame of reference for again. This is exactly the kind of irresponsible posting that I am talking about. What training or experiences have you had that form this opinion? By your own admission, you haven't been trained for any of these tasks.

 

From training others as well as being trained myself to clear structures as an individual, in pairs, and in small/large teams, I can tell you unequivocally that they relate directly in most Techniques, Tacics, and Procedures. The situation will dictate exact tactics, but the process for all are relevant to each other.

 

If you can't see how training for CQB/CQC/FISHing relates directly to HD I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

Wow, how ironic - just found this post from "Old Dog" to of all people "High-Exposure" in the "What Optics do you use" thread - right next door...Maybe High-E will now get the picture - different strokes for different folks - and open up his "field of vision" to many ways to approch a problem not just HE's :-)...BTW, OldDog if you are reading - on this Memorial Day - Thanks for Your Service!!! (From a fellow Veterean - we both made it back!).

Different strokes for different folks I get that - and this is where opinion and debate come in. Presenting facts to support your opinion, refuting facts that don't. Yet hat is how we learn and come to amend/form new opinion. We are all victims of our own frame of reference based on experiences and time. We only know what we know, and learning from others helps us grow.

 

But "different strokes" concept or not, there are still right and wrong choices for how to do things. Taking that a step further, choosing to do the "wrong" thing yourself, and advocating that others also do the "wrong" thing because "IMHO" they are the best tools for the job is irresponsible.

 

~ Shotgun or AR - different strokes

~ Shotgun/AR with or without optic - different strokes

~ Pistol instead of long gun (if you have access to both) - different strokes but approaching wrong

~ Pistol AND Machete instead of long gun - is past different strokes and squarely into wrong, but the only person you will hurt with this is you.

~ Advocating Pistol AND Machete as the way to go - wrong and irresponsible as now you may get someone else hurt with your silliness

 

Regarding ODs post here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/46165-what-optics-do-you-run-on-your-hd-shotgun/?hl=%2Bwhat+%2Boptics, if you read the whole thread, you would see that his response was taken out of context and by itself offers no meaning into what transpired.

 

Good luck CA, I hope you never have to use your machete and pistol, but if you do I hope it works for you.

You still don't get it and that's OK. I didn't attack you at all. I simply stated that what you said was wrong.

 

I don't care if you think I am a nice guy, or if I am an arrogant prick. When you post something so monumentally wrong on a forum such as this you should expect to get called on it. That's how this forum thing works, especially if it is run professionally like this one. It isn't personal and it wasn't an attack. I used a damned Adam Sandler quote to convey some humor into the discussion for crying out loud.

 

I wasn't making fun of you for watching a Magpul Video. I was saying that it takes more than watching the "Chris and Travis Show" to make you competent. I have watched most of the Magpul videos as well, hell, I even own a couple. (It is funny though, I have yet to see the new "Dynamic HD: The Way of the Tactical .45 and Machete" one )The Magpul videos are great entertainment and a decent training supplement but I will never base my tactics solely on what I saw on a DVD or base my opinion strictly on what someone spouts in their training video.

 

CA, I must admit, I do find it interesting that you haven't once responded to my argument against your chosen methods or how you came to these decisions, only the fact that I was "mean" to you.

 

 

 

"Obvious?" if what I said was obvious, I wouldn't have had to say it. As to the .45 example you posted, you touted the .45 as the best thing out there for a 1 stop shot, not me.

 

"Bloviating?" Thank you. Some may think it verbose, but I try to be articulate and thorough when I post. I do make some typos, but that's the price you pay using an iPad.

 

"Overstatements"? You mean like the ridiculous statement that started this whole thing - "A shotgun, a trench knife, and a .45 pistol are the best HD weapons ever because that is what they used in WWI" kind of overstatement? Or do you mean the ones where you state that tactical training doesn't apply to HD situations? Or the ones where you advocate shooting from the hip as the way to go for CQB?

 

There you go making statements that you have no frame of reference for again. This is exactly the kind of irresponsible posting that I am talking about. What training or experiences have you had that form this opinion? By your own admission, you haven't been trained for any of these tasks.

 

From training others as well as being trained myself to clear structures as an individual, in pairs, and in small/large teams, I can tell you unequivocally that they relate directly in most Techniques, Tacics, and Procedures. The situation will dictate exact tactics, but the process for all are relevant to each other.

 

If you can't see how training for CQB/CQC/FISHing relates directly to HD I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

Different strokes for different folks I get that - and this is where opinion and debate come in. Presenting facts to support your opinion, refuting facts that don't. Yet hat is how we learn and come to amend/form new opinion. We are all victims of our own frame of reference based on experiences and time. We only know what we know, and learning from others helps us grow.

 

But "different strokes" concept or not, there are still right and wrong choices for how to do things. Taking that a step further, choosing to do the "wrong" thing yourself, and advocating that others also do the "wrong" thing because "IMHO" they are the best tools for the job is irresponsible.

 

~ Shotgun or AR - different strokes

~ Shotgun/AR with or without optic - different strokes

~ Pistol instead of long gun (if you have access to both) - different strokes but approaching wrong

~ Pistol AND Machete instead of long gun - is past different strokes and squarely into wrong, but the only person you will hurt with this is you.

~ Advocating Pistol AND Machete as the way to go - wrong and irresponsible as now you may get someone else hurt with your silliness

 

Regarding ODs post here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/46165-what-optics-do-you-run-on-your-hd-shotgun/?hl=%2Bwhat+%2Boptics, if you read the whole thread, you would see that his response was taken out of context and by itself offers no meaning into what transpired.

 

Good luck CA, I hope you never have to use your machete and pistol, but if you do I hope it works for you.

HE - good to see you back!...It is obvious at this point that you are a relatively young, Internet Troll, with lots of time on your hands...You know a little something about "tactical-gear", and want to be a "Police-Man" when you grow up...For now, you find "Self-Identification" as the NJGF "Caped-Crusader" saving us from ourselves (ah, the simple joys you get from accusing others of being "irresponsible" (definition: bloviation))....I can tell this by the way you express yourself, the lack of dynamic thinking, and persistance to be proven "right"...No way, an actual Cop, in a position of responsibility would act this way (at least I hope not).

you're all wrong!   joe biden said to get a 12ga double barrel shotgun!  and fire 2 shots into the air.

HE - good to see you back!...It is obvious at this point that you are a relatively young, Internet Troll, with lots of time on your hands...You know a little something about "tactical-gear", and want to be a "Police-Man" when you grow up...For now, you find "Self-Identification" as the NJGF "Caped-Crusader" saving us from ourselves (ah, the simple joys you get from accusing others of being "irresponsible" (definition: bloviation))....I can tell this by the way you express yourself, the lack of dynamic thinking, and persistance to be proven "right"...No way, an actual Cop, in a position of responsibility would act this way (at least I hope not).

 

when you add absolutely nothing of substance and just post this kind of stuff it says everything that needs to be said... you have been told time and time again why certain things work better than others... but you ignore all that... I am not sure if it is a pride thing... but you should seriously reconsider the stance that you have adopted on home defense...he is not the only person that thinks you are doing it wrong.. 

when you add absolutely nothing of substance and just post this kind of stuff it says everything that needs to be said... you have been told time and time again why certain things work better than others... but you ignore all that... I am not sure if it is a pride thing... but you should seriously reconsider the stance that you have adopted on home defense...he is not the only person that thinks you are doing it wrong.. 

Quite the contrary my friend, based on most peoples posts, most people do not use ARs for HD.

 

Either way, your missing the point, and untill you drop the "wrong"/right brain freeze, we will get no further in this (I thought we were done anyway until HE started it up again after several days :-))...There are many ways to approch HD and it is more about tactics, and context, then choice of weapon...Read NickCJ's post which I think is right on...

 

(Seperatly, the issue with High Exposure is not so much that he recomends an AR - that is fine; It is his accusations of folks being "irresponsible" for stating thier views (if they don't agree with his (assuming I have his gender correct ;-))...And I am not the only one he pulled this stunt with. -High Exposure needs to be called out).

Thankfully I never had to clear my home......or any structure .... I have no dog in this fight... But another good thread gets derailed due to nonsense.... I wish in the intro section we could all REINTRODUCE ourselves with some real background bonfides as to who we are and what we do.....dunno...might cutdown on the unzip the fly check junk length stuff....

 

However, I see this type of question all day everyday at work.....stop ONLY focusing on the actual tool......there are more levels to home and personal security than the rifle...shotgun. Or pistol u choose. Those of us that are not in harms way on a daily basis...thank goodness....in our homes or do it as our livelihood...should and can learn from those that have the sometimes daily training...and have been there..

 

If the tool choice for home defense is your only focus and your panacea...you've lost already....have a plan....test the plan...run the plan...see if it works.....cause if it doesn't work during a dry run it sure as hell isn't gonna work in real time....

 

So getting back to what I hear..I was just at the li/NYC emergency management conference this week....I was talking with some from nassau oem, Nassau cert Suffolk sheriff and a school saftey admin.....in most failed safety plans those that try to execute them focus on material only....if i put in X cameras..I'm ok....if I put in x locks....I am ok....if I put in x access control I am ok....no, no your not....the safety admin is focusing on material..just as YOU are the OP on which is best....nothing is best in every situation....just as the operators just focused on procedures.....both are integral to a larger protection plan....bridge the gap...

 

You need a multi layered approach....that approach , just as in facility security is multi layer....no one system is best without the others to compliment it...then there is sop...etc.......they MUST work together....have a plan...

 

Personally up here in bear country I have a 12g pump handy in case.....but there is a plan my wife and kids know about if the bear is front or back of house....the shottie is one part of the plan..it's a tool....to help execute the plan

 

Home defense....my block 36 and strobing flashlight....but that is only a tool...what's the plan....what do the kids do if the bump in the night happens..what does my wife do....etc....have a plan and test it......then modify it if need be

 

 

The 'best' firearm or type thereof in the world is useless......if you don't know how to use it, train with it and know how it integrates with your plan.....you can argue tools all day long like you can argue oil or tires on a motorcycle forum.......

 

Test the tool...have a plan...test both..... I had my wife once wake me on purpose in the middle of the night..her choice of time and day...she had a month window....it was supposed to be a bump in the night test....I cannot tell you how disorienting it is to come out of such a deep sleep and try to react it is.....it made me rethink the plan....

Couldn't agree with this post more...Thanks for a great job framing this issue out.

Quite the contrary my friend, based on most peoples posts, most people do not use ARs for HD.

 

Either way, your missing the point, and untill you drop the "wrong"/right brain freeze, we will get no further in this (I thought we were done anyway until HE started it up again after several days :-))...There are many ways to approch HD and it is more about tactics, and context, then choice of weapon...Read NickCJ's post which I think is right on...

 

(Seperatly, the issue with High Exposure is not so much that he recomends an AR - that is fine; It is his accusations of folks being "irresponsible" for stating thier views (if they don't agree with his (assuming I have his gender correct ;-))...And I am not the only one he pulled this stunt with. -High Exposure needs to be called out).

The roadblock we hit is that while there is no absolute right and wrong... There is certainly better and best..

 

You can say "I use a sword because I'm mos used to it" or "308 bolt guns my hd choice"..

 

Those are both obviously awful choices for different reasons.. I am flat out telling you why I think an AR is better... It has nothing to do with personal choice... The choice has to do with potential to over penetrate... The choices have to do with weapon retention... The choice has to do with the light recoil and ability to make rapid follow up shots... Or one handed operation... The recomendation of a red dot has to do with the fact that it is faster than lining up iron sights and can be used with both eyes open....

 

I am telling you in great detail why I choose what I do... Your choice is based around a mythical one shot stoppage...

 

That is where the frustration comes from...

 

With an equally thought out plan... The ar15 will outperform a handgun or shotgun...

 

Obviously if you only have a handgun or shotgun they are better than nothing... And can be successfully used to defend oneself inside the home... My point is just that there are better options...