How did you handle bonded neutral? I think generators with dual voltage need to be neutral bonded to meet regs.

 

Neutral switching transfer switch?

I don't do anything with the neutral. It's bonded in the main panel. A neutral break transfer switch is not required for a portable gen set-up.

I don't do anything with the neutral. It's bonded in the main panel. A neutral break transfer switch is not required for a portable gen set-up.

I agree, neutral is bonded to ground in the main panel. My question relates to the second neutral-ground bond in the portable generator. As far as I know, you can only have that bond in one place. But I may be completely off base.

i'm going to guess he opens the door at least. and it's a "detached" garage.

i mostly asked, 'cause i'm setting up to run mine inside the detached garage also. but i don't wanna walk in there to kill it with the place full of exhaust. as it is my plan was to use 8" duct to vent it out the roof.

8 years out we are still happy with our Generac Guardian 16KW.   Ran it 100 hours during Sandy.   Costs (2) x $250/year to maintain and I know how to do most of the important things myself if I have to.  I have a steel horses and 2x8s rig to protect it from falling limbs, we actually had a tree limb come down in a storm and bash in the cover once.  No damage to the engine but I had to replace the top.

running in the garage....what're you doing about the exhaust?

running in the garage....what're you doing about the exhaust?

running it off natural gas, not petro gas. same as operating a gas stove in the kitchen. however it is a tri fuel so if it ever gets fired on gasoline just keep near the open door(and away from anything else) and aim the exhaust out. Apperently I was the first one in my town (and area?) to actually apply for a permit to set up a portable gen and had to wait for them to invent new pprwork/regs basically saying I will operate it safely in regards to combustable proximity. btw, having a masonry garage vs wood frame and metal overhead door reaaly helped.....

however it is a tri fuel...

What set-up did you buy?

What set-up did you buy?

Was a few yrs ago but i believe the co was US CARBERATION they have lots to choose from

Was a few yrs ago but i believe the co was US CARBERATION they have lots to choose from

That's the one I've been considering. I need to get off my ass and make mine happen.

That's the one I've been considering. I need to get off my ass and make mine happen.

was very easy, only obstacle is making sure the intake area has the clearence off the frame which is one of the reasons i chose the gen i got. i believe uscarb occasionally runs a great sale and i even may have posted one here a while back..or was it in the Great Deals thread.

I think that you did and I didn't act for some reason. I'm a slacker.

running it off natural gas, not petro gas. same as operating a gas stove in the kitchen. however it is a tri fuel so if it ever gets fired on gasoline just keep near the open door(and away from anything else) and aim the exhaust out. Apperently I was the first one in my town (and area?) to actually apply for a permit to set up a portable gen and had to wait for them to invent new pprwork/regs basically saying I will operate it safely in regards to combustable proximity. btw, having a masonry garage vs wood frame and metal overhead door reaaly helped.....

 

Uhm.   You do realize that your gas stove produces CO?   The reason it can run unvented is because the level of CO is low.   Your generator produces at a minimum 4 times the amount of CO, and on average quite a bit more due to incomplete combustion.   If you're going to run it in a garage, at least get a CO detector in the garage and in any rooms adjacent to the Garage.    I suspect that after about 30 minutes you'll be rolling that generator outside.

running it off natural gas, not petro gas. same as operating a gas stove in the kitchen. however it is a tri fuel so if it ever gets fired on gasoline just keep near the open...

It is the fact that it is an internal combustion engine that is the issue, not the type of fuel.

Propane, NG, gasoline, kerosene, diesel etc, CO is still a concern, just different levels.

It is the fact that it is an internal combustion engine that is the issue, not the type of fuel.

Propane, NG, gasoline, kerosene, diesel etc, CO is still a concern, just different levels.

 

Absolutely correct.

It is the fact that it is an internal combustion engine that is the issue, not the type of fuel.

Propane, NG, gasoline, kerosene, diesel etc, CO is still a concern, just different levels.

true, i over simplified with my kitchen stove reference. definatly dont want to be running a ng genny in the kitchen lol...but i di believe ng is the cleanest fuel when it comes to co2 emmissions.

but i di believe ng is the cleanest fuel when it comes to co2 emmissions.

Cleanest, yes. Clean enough for it not to be a concern, maybe not. Especially as the generator gets some hours on it and the fuel/air mix drifts out of spec. Home generators don't see a whole lot of maintenance and emissions testing...

 

And it's CO that you want to be most concerned about. Not that CO2 isn't also a concern, but it's orders of magnitude less important.

true, i over simplified with my kitchen stove reference. definatly dont want to be running a ng genny in the kitchen lol...but i di believe ng is the cleanest fuel when it comes to co2 emmissions.

 

Natural Gas and Propane are both about the same in how "clean" they are.  The issue is Carbon Monoxide.   You don't want to run ANY internal combustion engine in ANY confined space unless it is forcibly vented to the atmosphere via piping.  This includes garages with the door mostly down but open a crack "to let in fresh air".

1ltcap plans on running in a DETTACHED garage. Worst that hsppens is he kills some mice, or the generator stalls out. Running with the door open a few feet works fine. Did the same during Sandy. Generator never had an issue.

 

Just open door fully, and let the garage air out before entering.

someone I work with did this during sandy and burnt their house down.

was very easy, only obstacle is making sure the intake area has the clearence off the frame which is one of the reasons i chose the gen i got. i believe uscarb occasionally runs a great sale and i even may have posted one here a while back..or was it in the Great Deals thread.

the new design uses a snorkle instead of an adapter plate. eliminates the clearance install issues.

1ltcap plans on running in a DETTACHED garage. Worst that hsppens is he kills some mice, or the generator stalls out. Running with the door open a few feet works fine. Did the same during Sandy. Generator never had an issue.

 

Just open door fully, and let the garage air out before entering.

so is siderman. me? i will rig some sort of exhaust, possibly fan driven. i don't want to have to leave the garage open. i don't want anyone to be able to actually hear the gen. from the street. if i go the easy way, i'll run a stack out the back of the garage up to rooftop level. if i go the hard way, i'll go full paranoid, and bury the fucker. at that point, i feel i'd need a fan to pull the exhaust out. but........i don't wanna hafta worry about it vanishing.

so is siderman. me? i will rig some sort of exhaust, possibly fan driven. i don't want to have to leave the garage open. i don't want anyone to be able to actually hear the gen. from the street. if i go the easy way, i'll run a stack out the back of the garage up to rooftop level. if i go the hard way, i'll go full paranoid, and bury the fucker. at that point, i feel i'd need a fan to pull the exhaust out. but........i don't wanna hafta worry about it vanishing.

Had door open ~2ft.could barely hear it the house. I also had the generator chained down with 5/8" steel cable. It wasnt going anywhere.

Had door open ~2ft.could barely hear it the house. I also had the generator chained down with 5/8" steel cable. It wasnt going anywhere.

what?? you expect me to do something the easy way??!! 

what?? you expect me to do something the easy way??!!

Just to compilicate things a little more:

 

How are you planning on powering the exhaust fan?

 

I think you will need to have a 120v plugin to the generator.

Just to compilicate things a little more:

 

How are you planning on powering the exhaust fan?

 

I think you will need to have a 120v plugin to the generator.

rather strangely, i do have 4 120v plugs on the generator. but i was just gonna plug the fan into a wall socket in the garage, which would have power as soon as i fire up the generator.

most moderate or larger generators (say >4000W) have 4 outlets; a duplex for each 120V leg.

rather strangely, i do have 4 120v plugs on the generator. but i was just gonna plug the fan into a wall socket in the garage, which would have power as soon as i fire up the generator.

That's also a good idea if you have a Transfer switch (or Interlock) with gauges so you could monitor and load balance. If you plug in at the gen’s outlet those devices wouldn’t register downstream on your gauges, that is if you have gauges

I agree, neutral is bonded to ground in the main panel. My question relates to the second neutral-ground bond in the portable generator. As far as I know, you can only have that bond in one place. But I may be completely off base.

According to that diagram someone posted, you would be correct. I honestly never came across it. The electrical inspector doesn't look at the generator since it's not permanent. Just the means to attach the generator and the connection at the panel. I also never supplied a generator so it isn't something I've researched.

 

I understand the theory. No different then sub panels having the neutral and grounds isolated from each other. I've also seen tons of sub panels that had the neutrals grounded but never found it to be the cause of any issues.

 

I was also under the impression that all commercially sold portable generators were bonded. These "Floating Neutral" generators are not safe to be used as portable units to the best of knowledge. They are set-up for a particular application and need to be connected to the house in order to be grounded.

 

The way I see it, if you're concerned about having two bonds, the safest way to deal with it would be to break the ground at the inlet box. That way the cord will be protected by the generator ground and the inlet box and house will be protected by the house ground. The generator and house ground are then isolated from each other.

If you break the ground between the generator and the panel you MUST mechanically ground the generator frame itself to the earth, otherwise you risk having a charge on the frame which will then seek to find another path to ground. That path could very inconveniently be you. Remember the ground isn't a normal current carrying conductor, but a safety.

If you break the ground between the generator and the panel you MUST mechanically ground the generator frame itself to the earth, otherwise you risk having a charge on the frame which will then seek to find another path to ground. That path could very inconveniently be you. Remember the ground isn't a normal current carrying conductor, but a safety.

100% spot on comment.  My neutral and ground are bonded in my main panel box.   That's another reason why I went with a Honda Generator.  All the modern Honda generators sold today except for the EB series have floating neutral's and are great for home backup transfer switches or interlocks. Only the Honda EB series construction generators have bonded neutrals's so their OSHA workplace compliant.  

At the risk of stating the obvious, with floating neutral generator and 2 pole transfer switch:

 

Be sure to plug in the transfer cord between generator and panel inlet (with panel's generator breaker off) BEFORE you start the generator.

This will afford you proper grounding of generator frame and proper neutral bonding  via the main panel wiring in the event something went wrong with generator wiring.

 

Regarding Honda generators, many years ago, my local Home Depot once stocked a Honda that had a switch on the generator panel that would change between bonded and floating neutral. The switch had eyelets that you could thread a long shank padlock through to prevent somone from changing the configuration. I feel that all generators should be that way.