How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were left to people upon death? How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that people brought into the state from out of state? What about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were acquired prior to 1968? How are these registered?

 

 

can we add all the shotguns and rifles that FUDDs buy in delaware and pennsylvania?  if i went and got a remington 870 and a m1a at cabbalas tomorrow, how would NJSP ever find out about it?

And people help all the time when they proudly post pictures of their toys on forums picture threads. ...

I hear Cabelas is the only gun store in PA.

yeah, they sell about 1% of all firearms in PA

How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were left to people upon death? How about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that people brought into the state from out of state? What about all the firearms (handguns and long guns) that were acquired prior to 1968? How are these registered?

yeah..I kind of forgot about those.

And people help all the time when they proudly post pictures of their toys on forums picture threads. ...

Are forum members with a high post count more likely to be on a government list than low poster's?

This thread is laughable and irritating at the same time. Some of you have that tin foil hat on way too tight. There are ten times the amount of handguns not known by LE, and will be ever be known, in the hands of NJ Citizens, ie. inheritance, transients, illegal transfers. Not to mention all the long gun sales which are fifty times the handgun sales.

 

No gun information is transmitted via NICS. The COEs and P2Ps are kept by the dealer only. Mine are filed with the 4473 in chronological order. It was take a massive amount of man hours to go through everyone to find a name. It would be easier to scan the bound book for the name. Still, some dealers have hundreds of thousands of transactions recorded. And do you really think that they can be sure that person still has the firearm transferred years ago. It could have been sold, lost, stolen, etc. The Popo needs more than a handwritten transaction to get a warrant.

 

Also, as told to me recently by ATF (I have not yet checked into this) the NJSP FIU is not interested in even retaining the COEs or P2Ps when the dealer goes out of business. That paperwork is destroyed. The ATF doesn't want it either. The paperwork just takes up space.

I asked three simple questions: What do they know, how do they know it, and where does the data reside. I don't see anything conspiratorial about airing these questions and answers. 

 

Remember the guy stopped in Maryland a few months ago, driving back from a wedding? The cop who pulled him over allegedly said, "We know you have a gun. Where is it?"

 

If he's making it all up, ok. But it seems as if you can still get into doo-doo if you're fully within the law. In that case the cops were on a fishing expedition. They knew he was a gun owner, and he didn't even live in their state. But they figured they'd intimidate him anyway. And that's what eventual confiscation will be all about. Intimidation.

 

It's abundantly clear that they don't have to go through every single piece of paper in every registry or repository to effect confiscation, step by step, beginning with magazine capacities. All they have to do is knock on a few dozen doors of individuals likely to have a setup with what is by their definition a high capacity magazine. Hell, I could pick out half a dozen right on this forum.

 

I guarantee that even without a warrant 10-20% would cave and turn in their stuff. Human nature. Nobody wants to spend seven years getting butt-fukced by Bubba.

 

Then they conduct a few high-profile trials and send some people to jail for 3-5-10 years, whatever. Crazy? Ask Brian Aitken how crazy it is. 

 

 

After such a scenario, which is how IRS enforces compliance, you'd be surprised how many people turn in their stuff.

I asked three simple questions: What do they know, how do they know it, and where does the data reside. I don't see anything conspiratorial about airing these questions and answers. My reply was to others and it was addressed.

 

Remember the guy stopped in Maryland a few months ago, driving back from a wedding? The cop who pulled him over allegedly said, "We know you have a gun. Where is it?"

 

If he's making it all up, ok. But it seems as if you can still get into doo-doo if you're fully within the law. In that case the cops were on a fishing expedition. They knew he was a gun owner, and he didn't even live in their state. But they figured they'd intimidate him anyway. And that's what eventual confiscation will be all about. Intimidation.

 

It's abundantly clear that they don't have to go through every single piece of paper in every registry or repository to effect confiscation, step by step, beginning with magazine capacities. All they have to do is knock on a few dozen doors of individuals likely to have a setup with what is by their definition a high capacity magazine. Hell, I could pick out half a dozen right on this forum. :unknw:

 

I guarantee that even without a warrant 10-20% would cave and turn in their stuff. Human nature. Nobody wants to spend seven years getting butt-fukced by Bubba.

 

Then they conduct a few high-profile trials and send some people to jail for 3-5-10 years, whatever. Crazy? Ask Brian Aitken how crazy it is. This poster-child broke the law.

 

 

After such a scenario, which is how IRS enforces compliance, you'd be surprised how many people turn in their stuff.

Laughable and irritating?

 

I find that to be insulting to those that are partaking in it.......

 

Your missing the point..........the DATA is THERE..........IT CAN BE FOUND..........nothing is in a black hole........if you want to find it it is recorded.......and with time it can be found...this is NOT tinfoil.

 

Why not check with the FIU to see if the took the current P2P info and put it in an electronic database...?

I put to you that the data is only valid for a very short time after a purchase.

 

There are many ways that a firearm can leave your possesion legally that do not have paperwork associated with them.

 

The day house to house searches are started is the day the shooting starts.

 

 

Then they conduct a few high-profile trials and send some people to jail for 3-5-10 years, whatever. Crazy? Ask Brian Aitken how crazy it is. This poster-child broke the law.

 

 

After such a scenario, which is how IRS enforces compliance, you'd be surprised how many people turn in their stuff.

 

Granted. My point is that breaking the law is VERY easy, and the consequences extremely severe. 

 

That's a sure-fire recipe for despotism. I can't think of a historical precedent where it hasn't worked.

 

NJ gun owners have a hard enough time understanding the laws, to the point of buying a Bible-sized book explaining them. 

 

As the guy in Ohio who sold me my first semi-auto asked, "What's a purchase permit?"

Paul, pretty much exactly what I said in said in the very first response in the post

That is not entirely true......name a way that a firearm has left your posession that paperwork is not involved....  stolen?  You must notify...no?

1. Lost

2. Destroyed

3. Demilled

4 Gun Buyback

 

Please tell me the law that says you MUST report a stolen firearm.

2C:58-19 Report of loss, theft of firearm within 36 hours; violations, penalties.

 

1. The legal owner of a firearm, upon discovering that the firearm is lost or stolen, shall report the loss or theft within 36 hours to the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality in which the loss or theft occurred or, if the municipality does not have a local police force, to the Superintendent of State Police.

 

A person who violates the provisions of this section shall be liable to a civil penalty of not less than $500 for a first offense, and not less than $1,000 for any second or subsequent offense. The civil penalty shall be collected pursuant to the "Penalty Enforcement Law of 1999," P.L.1999, c.274 (C.2A:58-10 et seq.).

 

This thread is laughable and irritating at the same time. Some of you have that tin foil hat on way too tight. There are ten times the amount of handguns not known by LE, and will be ever be known, in the hands of NJ Citizens, ie. inheritance, transients, illegal transfers. Not to mention all the long gun sales which are fifty times the handgun sales.

 

No gun information is transmitted via NICS. The COEs and P2Ps are kept by the dealer only. Mine are filed with the 4473 in chronological order. It was take a massive amount of man hours to go through everyone to find a name. It would be easier to scan the bound book for the name. Still, some dealers have hundreds of thousands of transactions recorded. And do you really think that they can be sure that person still has the firearm transferred years ago. It could have been sold, lost, stolen, etc. The Popo needs more than a handwritten transaction to get a warrant.

 

Also, as told to me recently by ATF (I have not yet checked into this) the NJSP FIU is not interested in even retaining the COEs or P2Ps when the dealer goes out of business. That paperwork is destroyed. The ATF doesn't want it either. The paperwork just takes up space.

 

 

I'll turn every bound book in NJ into a database for $10 million dollars in 30 days. I'm sure NJ can do it they decide to.

 

($10 is a starting point for negotiation)

 

Oops, i forgot to respond to something.

 

There are ten times the amount of handguns not known by LE, and will be ever be known, in the hands of NJ Citizens, ie. inheritance, transients, illegal transfers.

I don't think the people in this thread are worried about their illegal, inerhited, or "transient" guns. Those guns don't make 99% of guns people here own somehow less traceable.

 

Lastly, I started a YEAR ago garnering ten round mags for all of my firearms that are magazine fed....and sold all those out of state that are greater than ten....but that is *ME* and my tolerance...YMMV

Did you hear? The "10" was a typo. It's been corrected to 9. Oops.    

We need to get a "lawyer's corner" somewhere on these boards. Maybe make it a premium service. A flesh-and-bones attorney or group of them could answer select questions once or twice a week. Instead of what we normally do, which is we first argue about how many devils can dance on the narrow end of a charcoal briquette, then someone posts the law (confusing everybody), followed by two or three additional weeks of bickering.

 

For example, what happens if the 10+ round ban actually goes into effect? What types of legal action or processes could be set into motion to enforce those laws? Under what circumstances could an owner of such magazines come into adverse contact with law enforcement? What 4th amendment protections are available to individuals who may or may not still own such magazines? 

 

NOTE: I am not advocating breaking the law in any shape, manner or form!!!

 

We (myself included) tend to dredge up extreme examples, like Aitken, to prove various points. Until relatively recently most states had anti-sodomy laws. But it took a cop standing on a ladder outside your bedroom window, or blatantly public indiscretion, actually to get caught.

 

OTOH the penalties are so severe...

One question always comes up my head...who would turn in a gun for free?  If you had thousands of dollars worth of your hobby, the guns, optics, cases, mags, ammo, and so on, would you actually toss the lot into a big box and drop it off?

Would people hand over the keys to their cars if someone passed a law banning 6-cylinder cars?  (Granted, it would be pretty hard to hide the car).

 

Has anyone been to a buyback?  I would imagine it is chock full of busted handguns and things grandma found in the sock drawer after grandpa passed on, and she is scared to have them around.

 

If people are turning in quality pieces, I'd stand out front and offer twice what they'd get inside.

What do they Know?  Considering that the NJSP wants to be in on every NICS call and they want a copy of the permits that have the buyer/seller,make, model, serial # and cal. of every hg legally transferred/sold in the state how can anyone assume they dont want to know as much as possible??? Or maybe they just want the paperwork for OGAM and every day they shred the copys that are 31 days old and dont bother to transfer all that info to a database first because this is such a 2A friendly state and they really dont care...all those who believe that say aye...

 

 

Remember the guy stopped in Maryland a few months ago, driving back from a wedding? The cop who pulled him over allegedly said, "We know you have a gun. Where is it?"

 

That is because he is a CCW holder and therefore listed in the police database known as D.A.V.I.D. (Driving And Vehicle Information Database).   In fact, CCW permitting is one of the first items to be returned on inquiry.

 

 

Silence