Neutral bonded generators will tell you to ground the generator frame.

 

Generac generators do the neutral bond at one of the 120v outlets.

 

Do a search for your generator model # + "scematic" there are online drawings that show the exact connections

Hopefully joaquin dont make landfall like their saying

I thought about the interlock kit. But AFAIK the method of back feeding your main box is against code. Certainly would have been much cheaper and easier to do.

I went with an interlock. Mine is 100% factory and UL listed.

My Champion 3500/4000 (33.3 Amps) gen is labeled on the frame that it has a floating neutral.  Strangely, there is no mention of floating or bonded neutral in the manual. In any case, I'm still a little confused.  If I understand the differences correctly, a bonded neutral genset should not be attached to a beaker panel until the neutral is modified to be floated.  This method, (floated neutral and breaker panel attached), uses the house grounding and having two earth grounds would create a difference in potential between the two grounds. 

 

A bonded neutral genny can be used UN-grounded as long as certain conditions are met.
 

Generators used on construction sites supplying cord-and-plug connected equipment (tools, lights, etc.) are considered a “separately derived system” in the National Electrical Code and thus, the neutral must be bonded to the frame of the generator.

 

In accordance with OSHA, portable generators used on construction sites do not need to be connected to a ground rod, provided the generator supplies only equipment connected through receptacles on the generator, and the equipment is grounding through the receptacles to the frame of the generator.

Note that the generator’s noncurrent-carrying metal parts - such as the fuel tank, the internal combustion engine and the generator’s housing - must also be bonded to the frame.

 

 

Basically, bonded neutral gennys are to be used only as a stand alone power systems and faults are fed back to the frame/chassis via grounded three conductor cords.  It still does not hurt to earth ground a bonded generator with a copper clad rod if the genny will not be moved around a lot, such as what would be expected for a genny used in construction.  Really, it would be an expensive pain in the ass to drive a copper rod at every site and in many instances would not be practical.

 

A floating neutral is required for panel attached generators because, as previously stated, having an earth ground for the house wiring, and then having an additional earth ground at the genset will create a difference in potential between the grounds and could energize the ground wire. So, with a floating neutral,a grounding rod is not used.

 

Hopefully my understanding so far is correct but if not please feel free to chime in. 

 

Now comes the part where I'm a little confused.  What should I do if I'm using a floated neutral generator as a stand alone separately derived system?  My genny is connected to the house via a three prong 30A twist lock L5-30R outlet on the gen.  On the other end of the cord is a 30A L14-30P four prong twist lock, only three of the four prongs are used. On the interior side of the wall are two outlets connected in series.  Basically what this set up does for me is eliminate extension cords being run through open windows.  It's an elaborate way to move electrons 8 inches.

 

Another thing I'm confused about is this.  I have seen topical schematics of floated neutral systems where the neutral is shown as bonded at the transformer, then floated at the outlets.  Is this how all floated neutral systems work?

 

I don't want to ground the gen right now because I'll be moving it out of the small shed I built for it to another enclosure at a different  location.  Since I'm running it stand alone, I don't believe there is any major risk right now but I still feel that earth grounded is better.  So here's a question.  Will the generator be considered properly earth grounded if I drive a rod where the inlet is and ground the inlet to the rod instead of the generator grounding terminal?.

 

The way I see it is like this.  If my power company hookup is grounded at the meter, which is also the inlet, then grounding at the four prong inlet should also be kosher.

I skipped buying the generator and bought a snow thrower instead.

A floating neutral is required for panel attached generators because, as previously stated, having an earth ground for the house wiring, and then having an additional earth ground at the genset will create a difference in potential between the grounds and could energize the ground wire.

 

Right.  There should only be one point in the system where the bonding occurs. 

 

My opinion is that if your generator is neutral/ground bonded and not something you can break, simply leave the ground disconnected in the service cable at the inlet end.  Your inlet box and everything in your panel should have a ground from the main house ground.   Your generator will have its own ground and the breakers will trip if voltage goes to the frame.   If you sever the service cord, you trip the breakers on the generator, if you get a fault in the house, it goes to house ground.  The frame of the genset won't be energized by neutral voltages.  Not code, but I don't see the risks here.

If I pull the outside glass meter assembly from its frame, does that isolate the neutral line from the grid???  In my

breaker box, all neutral and ground wires are connected to the same aluminum blocks that also connect to my cold

water supply line.

 

Tripping the main breaker would only isolate the the 2 hot phases leaving the neutral lines connected to the power grid.

I just don't want to endanger a lineman by using my generator!!!

 

In your house, the neutral is bonded to the ground inside the breaker panel.  If you have a setup with a main panel and subpanels that are fed from the main, only they should be bonded only in the main panel.  The bonding is done by installing the neutral bus bar directly to the panel without insulators. 

my panel is so old it only has one bus bar for both neutral and ground.

So far it hasn't been bad at all ..... hope it stays like this

I already ate the neighbor's dog. What am I supposed to say on Monday? I think his house video caught it.

 

This reminds me of failed predictions of massive snowstorms when I decided not to do my homework for school.

I already ate the neighbor's dog. What am I supposed to say on Monday? I think his house video caught it.This reminds me of failed predictions of massive snowstorms when I decided not to do my homework for school.

What kind of dog was it

ok....dumb question. why a transfer switch between the power inlet receptacle, and the circuit panel? i mean essentially, as long as i turn off the mains before powering up, why can't this receptacle just go directly to the circuit panel?

 

 for clarification, my garage is seperate from my house. it is fed from the house circuit panel. it has its own panel out there. what i was looking to do, was install the receptacle, wired directly to the garages panel. then in the event i need the gen., go into the basement of the house, kill the mains, go out into the garage, and fire up the gen., thus powering the house from the garage. am i missing something here? am i over-simplifying it?

By code you need an either or failsafe for gen or utility power. IF gen was on and main breaker was not turned off you could backfeed the grid endangering utility workers.

 

You would know better and not do it, someone else might.

ok....dumb question. why a transfer switch between the power inlet receptacle, and the circuit panel? i mean essentially, as long as i turn off the mains before powering up, why can't this receptacle just go directly to the circuit panel?

 

 for clarification, my garage is seperate from my house. it is fed from the house circuit panel. it has its own panel out there. what i was looking to do, was install the receptacle, wired directly to the garages panel. then in the event i need the gen., go into the basement of the house, kill the mains, go out into the garage, and fire up the gen., thus powering the house from the garage. am i missing something here? am i over-simplifying it?

I believe in that scenario, which by the way is how I would do it! The problem is you can  forget to shut off the mains in the house, or someone can turn it on without your knowledge, thus back feeding the grid

and endangering a lineman's life! The quote  "as long as i turn off the mains before powering up" leaves a chance for human error since you are able to power up without killing the mains!!!

 

Doing it the right way makes it not possible to have the generator online with the mains on! The other way allows for an oops, I screwed up situation possible and is therefore illegal!

 

It can be as simple as a plate mounted on the face of the breaker panel that would not allow the main breaker and generator breaker to be on at the same time! You slide it one way and it blocks the main

and allows the generator breaker to be on! You slide it the other way and it allows the main while physically blocking you from engaging the generator breaker. No chance for a mistake!!!

And another point on backfeeding and not having a disconnect. Ever wonder what happens when utility power comes back on and is out of phase with your generator. Usually winds up with an exploding generator. 5-7 gallons of gas makes a nice firball.

well here's the deal on someone else possibly turning on the mains with the gen running. half the year i live alone. half the year mom stays here with me. even when she IS here with me, she is not capable of getting to the circuit panel in the basement, nor is she capable of getting in the garage(she parks her car in the driveway)....so it is only myself that can do this. the other thing......when the power comes back on with the mains off, it doesn't get into the house? to meed the gen power?

What kind of dog was it

It looked like the one in the posters stapled to the telephone poles.

It looked like the one in the posters stapled to the telephone poles.

how'd it taste?

how'd it taste?

Like Koreans

Like Koreans

lol

well here's the deal on someone else possibly turning on the mains with the gen running. half the year i live alone. half the year mom stays here with me. even when she IS here with me, she is not capable of getting to the circuit panel in the basement, nor is she capable of getting in the garage(she parks her car in the driveway)....so it is only myself that can do this. the other thing......when the power comes back on with the mains off, it doesn't get into the house? to meed the gen power?

You can do it this way, you just need an dedicated inlet box and interlock switch for the breaker in the mainbox. Why? because god forbid anything ever happened.... even your insurance company will tell you to kick rocks if the house burns down.

About the only thing I don't agree with is that I can't make my own interlock for 5 bucks and have to buy a UL approved piece of scrap metal for 80bucks.

i'm probably being stupid here.....but how do i install an interlock switch? the garage is fed from the main box in the basement. it is live 24/7. the garage has its own box, which is fed from the house. it also is live 24/7. however, it does not contain the mains from the street. the power flows from the street(pole) to my main box in the basement, then through a dedicated 220 line out to the garage. the generator will be run in the garage(properly exhausted of course). the generator will be plugged into the receptacle in the garage, which will power the panel in the garage, then feed the house(once the house is cut off from the grid).

 if my understanding of these interlock switches is correct, i would need to install it on the main box in my basement, so that when i want to power up by the generator, it will cut off the mains from the street. but that isn't possible since the garage always has power, and i am looking to feed power through already existing lines.

i'm probably being stupid here.....but how do i install an interlock switch? the garage is fed from the main box in the basement. it is live 24/7. the garage has its own box, which is fed from the house. it also is live 24/7. however, it does not contain the mains from the street. the power flows from the street(pole) to my main box in the basement, then through a dedicated 220 line out to the garage. the generator will be run in the garage(properly exhausted of course). the generator will be plugged into the receptacle in the garage, which will power the panel in the garage, then feed the house(once the house is cut off from the grid).

 if my understanding of these interlock switches is correct, i would need to install it on the main box in my basement, so that when i want to power up by the generator, it will cut off the mains from the street. but that isn't possible since the garage always has power, and i am looking to feed power through already existing lines.

 

you wouldnt be able to install an interlock in that situation.

 

I do the same thing, I have 60 amp 220v running from my main house panel out to my detached garage that has its own panel.

 

I wired the generator outlet to the garage panel, in the event of a emergency situation I back feed generator power through my garage back to the main. 

 

Everybody here is acting like these scenarios will not work if you dont have an interlock switch, all an interlock does it make it absolutely dummy proof so that you can not physically have both breakers on at the same time. Just dont be a retard and turn the main back on while you are on gen. power.

We could actually use some rain. If it comes down slowly enough, the dirt could absorb a LOT of water. I hardly rained this summer.

Swimming River Reservoir is noticeably low.

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ok. next dumb question. this is inside the welder plug i'm about to remove. when i go across the red and black wires, i get 243v. across either of those wires, and the white(neutral i think) wire, i get 120v, and across either of the red or black wires and the bare(ground?) wire i get 120v. if i go across the white and bare wires, i get nothing.

 now.....in the receptacle box, it tells which terminals to connect the wires to.......but do i connect the bare wire to the grounded green wire inside the box?

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ok. next dumb question. this is inside the welder plug i'm about to remove. when i go across the red and black wires, i get 243v. across either of those wires, and the white(neutral i think) wire, i get 120v, and across either of the red or black wires and the bare(ground?) wire i get 120v. if i go across the white and bare wires, i get nothing.

 now.....in the receptacle box, it tells which terminals to connect the wires to.......but do i connect the bare wire to the grounded green wire inside the box?

 

 

Black/Red = Hot ( 120 each, you get 240 with a voltmeter across the 2 )

White = Neutral 

Bare / Green = Ground

Black/Red = Hot ( 120 each, you get 240 with a voltmeter across the 2 )

White = Neutral 

Bare / Green = Ground

that's what i thought. so connections inside the reliant receptacle would be black to x, red to y, white to w, and bare will go on the screw that the green wire is conencted to.....

 

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Thank God Joaquin didn't hit us.....

that's what i thought. so connections inside the reliant receptacle would be black to x, red to y, white to w, and bare will go on the screw that the green wire is conencted to.....

 

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Yes, that's right.

 

If you're re-using those wires to that welder outlet, just make sure they're 10ga if you're generator service is 30amp.  It's hard to tell from a picture.

No problem, Dog.