Article on TTAG. NJSP suing Sig Sauer stating they're P229 is junk

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/new-jersey-sues-sig-sauer-malfunctioning-p229s/

I wouldn't call it ragging.  NJSP had problems with the guns.  Sig acknowledged there was problems and tried several ways to fix it but they didn't work.  Would you be satisfied?

Well I guess there is the issue of ammo that hasn't seem to be addressed, at least in the article it seems to be an unknown still.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/new-jersey-sues-sig-sauer-malfunctioning-p229s/

Interesting to say the least.  I would love to know what the real issue is because Sig Sauer is probably doing about as good as you can right now in this market. 

Is there really an issue with the gun?  Or is it crappy ammo or a bunch of other issues?

I have never had issues with thousands of rounds through either of my sigs and generally they are quite reliable.

From Sig's perspective, yeah, it makes sense for them to just admit there is a problem then to go back and forth, that only makes the issue worse.

They replaced extractors, they replaced barrels.... in every gun?  Does not add up.

Is it true as the blog claims that NJSP uses cheap non-brass cased ammo to practice?

After the fiasco with the s&w 99, my knee jerk reaction is to wonder how far njsp procurement's head is up their ass this time. 

The reason why I posted was because, to our fearless leader's (Maksim) point, how can so many, after replacing all those parts in the quantity they did, have the issue. Wouldnt we have heard a lot more yelling from consumers. Is this just our nanny state whining because they want to save money on ammo?

29 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Is there really an issue with the gun?  Or is it crappy ammo or a bunch of other issues?

I have never had issues with thousands of rounds through either of my sigs and generally they are quite reliable.

From Sig's perspective, yeah, it makes sense for them to just admit there is a problem then to go back and forth, that only makes the issue worse.

They replaced extractors, they replaced barrels.... in every gun?  Does not add up.

Is it true as the blog claims that NJSP uses cheap non-brass cased ammo to practice?

Maks, I think the ammo issue is speculation.  I would be surprised if NJSP hadn't considered this.

I have very limited experience with steel case ammo.  What I've shot worked okay.  I've shot at least several thousand rounds of aluminum case ammo. Extraction sometimes sticky with revolvers but no issues with 9mm and 45 ACP.   Now that's in Glocks, Walthers, S&Ws, Taurus, Colts, H&Ks,  and others. But no Sigs.  If an ammo works fine in everything else I'd consider it a gun issue.  JMO.

Checking to see what NJSP uses for duty and practice ammo.

We discussed this almost exactly a year ago.

https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/81268-legion-fail/&page=2#comment-1042702

 

NJSP use commonly used practice ammo. Nothing weird.

New Brunswick had similar issues broken extractors and cracked frames with their 229s in .40 as well. They use the exact same practice and duty ammo that my agency does.

NBPD were told by the Sig rep to look into the Legacy Series with the old style extractor. He said it's because it would fit their existing holsters better. When asked point blank if it was really because the new extractors were garbage the rep clammed up and got all uncomfortable. 

1 minute ago, High Exposure said:

We discussed this almost exactly a year ago.

https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/81268-legion-fail/&page=2#comment-1042702

 

NJSP use commonly used practice ammo. Nothing weird.

New Brunswick had similar issues broken extractors and cracked frames with their 229s in .40 as well. They use the exact same practice and duty ammo that my agency does.

NBPD were told by the Sig rep to look into the Legacy Series with the old style extractor. He said it's because it would fit their existing holsters better. When asked point blank if it was really because the new extractors were garbage the rep clammed up and got all uncomfortable. 

•  

That certainly changes the perception if other departments have the issue.

Just now, High Exposure said:

We discussed this almost exactly a year ago.

https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/81268-legion-fail/&page=2#comment-1042702

 

NJSP use commonly used practice ammo. Nothing weird.

New Brunswick had similar issues broken extractors and cracked frames with their 229s in .40 as well. They use the exact same practice and duty ammo that my agency does.

NBPD were told by the Sig rep to look into the Legacy Series with the old style extractor. He said it's because it would fit their existing holsters better. When asked point blank if it was really because the new extractors were garbage the rep clammed up and got all uncomfortable. 

•  

But as per the article, when they switched to the old extractors... there was still the issue.

On the ammo thing, the non brass ammo has gotten a lot better.  The old stuff was quite sticky.  Where this really became an issue is with the "tighter" guns, ie higher end 1911's and Sigs.

I have had zero issues with Glocks, M&Ps, HKs.... and it is not surprising considering those guns are built more for reliability than precision.  Sigs on the other hand...  not quite.

Other thing.... this practice ammo... how soft shooting is it?  Too soft to reliably cycle the guns?

I have had two former LEO Sigs and absolutely zero issues with any ammo I have shot.  Don't recall if I shot crappy CCI Blazer stuff through it or not. 

Purely from speculation....Sig has had a few issues in this state with guns and customer service.

That's right, the old extractor still has the issue.

As far as ammo, AG policy states basically that training ammo has to be similar to duty ammo.

We carry Fed 180gr HST. Our training ammo is Am Eagle 180 TMJ. When we carried Speer GD our training ammo was Speer Lawman FMJ. I know NBPD uses the same Duty and practice ammo that we do.

I'm not sure exactly what NJSP uses for duty and training but I'm sure it's a similar pairing.

Edit: NJSP duty ammo is Speer 124gr GDHP. Training ammo is Speer Lawman FMJ equivalent.

Edited May 18, 20179 yr by High Exposure
Verified NJSP ammo

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

That's right, the old extractor still has the issue.

As far as ammo, AG policy states basically that training ammo has to be similar to duty ammo.

We carry Fed 180gr HST. Our training ammo is Am Eagle 180 TMJ. When we carried Speer GD our training ammo was Speer Lawman FMJ. I know NBPD uses the same Duty and practice ammo that we do.

I'm not sure exactly what NJSP uses for duty and training but I'm sure it's a similar pairing.

Edit: NJSP duty ammo is Speer 124gr GDHP. Training ammo is Speer Lawman FMJ equivalent.

Checked with my Trooper friend.  He didn't know the brands (thanks HE) but said they were having failures to extract with service and practice ammo. Practice ammo is brass case.  He never had any problems with his issue gun but said there was a lot of failures to extract on the range with other guns.

He's been issued a Glock 19.  Runs fine with the same ammo.  Everybody else's does too 

Sounds like a gun issue to me.

Should have stuck with the P7M8.

They should get Glocks or M&Ps in 40S&W.  They are for sale everywhere. 

25 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Checked with my Trooper friend.  He didn't know the brands (thanks HE) but said they were having failures to extract with service and practice ammo. Practice ammo is brass case.  He never had any problems with his issue gun but said there was a lot of failures to extract on the range with other guns.

He's been issued a Glock 19.  Runs fine with the same ammo.  Everybody else's does too 

Sounds like a gun issue to me.

Thanks for that.

So now the question is... how do so many guns have issues?  Just weird as hell (especially after barrel and extractor replacements).

25 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Thanks for that.

So now the question is... how do so many guns have issues?  Just weird as hell (especially after barrel and extractor replacements).

Apparently too many.

I don't think this might be included in the complaint.  Would be presented as evidence.

My guess is Sig will just settle this out of court.  It would be cheaper and less harmful to their reputation than letting this issue all become public record.

 

Sig USA has had problems since Cohen left Kimber (whose reputation he killed) and took the reigns over at Sig.

@High Exposure yes.  I do think many, myself included still look back and have the image of Sig in the 1980's and before, those awesome West German made sigs.  

Sig did have issues when they started having financial issues and were run by a private equity fund, and focus was put on cost cutting.

 

Also look at the application, how many of those sigs were cleaned on regular basis, what condition were the mags in and how much dirt was in the mag getting on cases.  

I would not put service duty pistols in the same category as civilian.

Vp9

23 hours ago, Maksim said:

@High Exposure yes.  I do think many, myself included still look back and have the image of Sig in the 1980's and before, those awesome West German made sigs.  

Sig did have issues when they started having financial issues and were run by a private equity fund, and focus was put on cost cutting.

 

Back in the 80s and 90s Sigs were considered the creme de le creme.  However I never warmed up to them.  Their price didn't justify what they delivered.  I bought a Ruger P90 in the 90s for less than half the price than a 220.  The P90 does everything the Sig does.

22 hours ago, tony357 said:

Also look at the application, how many of those sigs were cleaned on regular basis, what condition were the mags in and how much dirt was in the mag getting on cases.  

I would not put service duty pistols in the same category as civilian.

Unless you're selling a handgun as a target pistol it makes it a service pistol AFAIC.  That would mean a certain degree of reliability even if neglected.  I doubt Troopers don't maintain their firearms.

Get HK to bring back the P7M13!

1 hour ago, Rob0115 said:

Get HK to bring back the P7M13!

Cue the....

1. It overheats

2. Squeeze cocker is too hard to hold.

3. Limited capacity

4. It's Weird

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New-Jersey-State-Police-Sig-Sauer-Complaint.pdf

Copy of complaint.

Where can I sign up to get one of these used Sig police pistols for cheap?

I have a 226 in FDE, scorpion 9mm no issues, no matter what brand ammo. It looks great (especially the grips)  and shoots great. It gets cleaned after every two range sessions. Is the problem model related?

 

1 hour ago, yukongt2000 said:

Where can I sign up to get one of these used Sig police pistols for cheap?

I don't know why you would want to do that.  You might luck out and get one of the guns that work.  You might get one that Sig has been unable to get to run right for sometime.  Odds sound worse than a crapshoot to me.  More like playing Russian Roulette with only one empty chamber.

I find this amusing that all the Sig fans refuse to believe Sig might have made a batch of lemons.  People here and on other forums have jumped on blaming the ammo without knowing what kind of ammo they use.  I don't know of a single LE agency that uses steel case ammo.

I've seen some claim this lawsuit has basis in the fact NJ is an anti gun state.  The fact is NJ bought something, it didn't work, they gave the manufacturer the chance to fix it, and they didn't.  As a NJ taxpayer I think one would be glad the NJAG is pursuing this rather than all those criminal cases about a single hollow point rolling around in a trunk or all those people being prosecuted for not taking the most direct way to or from a range with a handgun.

Would love to hear Sig's side of the story.

In any case, the complaint does not actually state how many of the guns actually had issues.  I wonder how many lunches Glock reps took out the powers that be.

I am still in disbelief that SOOOO many guns can have so many issues, yet other departments don't have any?

And reading the complaint, they allege that both the Enhanced Elites and Legacies have had the issues.

At the end Sig suggested it may be the barrels and offered to replace but NJSP already ordered Glock 19s as replacements. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Sig fanboy, far from it, I am just having a hard time accepting the allegations are complete reality.