Earlier this month I picked up the Windham Weaponry R18FSFST-308 from my local gun shop, I hadn’t had a chance to shoot it until today (2/22/18) because I didn’t have an optic nor did I have time to make it to EFGA on a nice day, so after getting an optic in & a bunch of other things earlier this week, today I got to spend some time down range with this bad boy. I paired it with a Nikon P-308 4-12x40MM scope, and I’m not gonna lie, I know nothing about scopes, so today was my first time shooting with one and getting acquainted.

 

 

First up I spent about an hour and 40 rounds getting a zero with this scope and I was getting a bit frustrated. My first impression was, now I know why a majority of the DPMS rifles are piston systems rather than direct impingement. Recoil can be a bear if you don’t expect it, and coming from AR-15 platforms, it’s a rude awakening & you need to quickly adapt and handle the rifle firmly to manage recoil.

 

All 100 yard zero benchshooting with a cheap $20 bipod from amazon & Federal 7.62x51 149 gr FMJ

 

 

I realize the ammo and Bipod choices probably weren’t best, but you can see from my groupings being all over, a lot of that was from mismanaging recoil.

 

After an hour I switched to a normal target

 

 

Not the best shooting, but it wasn’t horrible either. My impressions from my first time shooting this rifle, great rifle for the money. For $1500 out the door like I paid, I have no complaints, with a piston system you will definitely see a lot less recoil but I don’t consider this rifle to be cheaply made at all. Next time hopefully will have a better bipod (or i’ll use a shooting bag) and better ammo.

 

The P-308? I can’t say anything bad about it, it doesn’t suck and other than the lowest end vortex optic on a friends AR, I have nothing to compare it to, but compared to his scope I like this one more.

 

After an hour and a half with the 308, switched over to my LWRC and as always, had a lot of fun. I can’t say nothing but great things about the MRO and the G2S trigger i put on it. Rifle is perfect

 

Looks like your trigger control is off. Get a better trigger.  Looks like a 3-4 moa rifle.  Is that because of you the shooter?  Did you set your paralax correct. Also ive found that ammo blows.  You prob have a 1-11 twist.  Try fed gold match ammo.  168 or 175.  That will make a large diff also.   That moa is unacceptable.   Ill shoot around 1 moa with my stock dpms lr 308.  So.  First change ammo then trigger    Then try again.  I have a nikon p308 on mine 4-16.  Shoots about 1moa. But i load my own   I use smk 168 hpbt. For longer distances i load 175 sierra tipped 

Adjust 4 up if you’re using moa scope 9 if mil. 

Looks like your trigger control is off. Get a better trigger.  Looks like a 3-4 moa rifle.  Is that because of you the shooter?  Did you set your paralax correct. Also ive found that ammo blows.  You prob have a 1-11 twist.  Try fed gold match ammo.  168 or 175.  That will make a large diff also.   That moa is unacceptable.   Ill shoot around 1 moa with my stock dpms lr 308.  So.  First change ammo then trigger    Then try again.  I have a nikon p308 on mine 4-16.  Shoots about 1moa. But i load my own   I use smk 168 hpbt. For longer distances i load 175 sierra tipped 

Ammo and a crappy bipod definitely factor in to this, but a lot of it was not handling recoil properly at first. DI .308 rifles the recoil is aggressive. Once I started handling the rifle firmer than I was, i was able to at least shoot groupings. However that bipod was horrible for a .308, my best grouping MOA was 6.25 up for a 100 yard BZO. Next time I will use my shooting bag + better ammo, then reassess from there before I upgrade the trigger

And make sure you double and triple check that scope mount while you're at it. If it's an Amazon el-cheepo...upgrade. Those things aren't suitable for anything other than rimfire.

And make sure you double and triple check that scope mount while you're at it. If it's an Amazon el-cheepo...upgrade. Those things aren't suitable for anything other than rimfire.

It’s a Primary Arms mount, which I agree with you, it’s slipping.

And make sure you double and triple check that scope mount while you're at it. If it's an Amazon el-cheepo...upgrade. Those things aren't suitable for anything other than rimfire.

It’s a Primary Arms mount, which I agree with you, it’s slipping.

I usually find a wide ass group like that with  loose rings has either alot of hits one side or the other.  But its possible to have a group like that with loose rings.  Somethings up.  I hope its the rings.  Locktite it.  

Ps.  The bipod wouldnt do that.  No matter how much it sucks.  

This bipod was leaning to the right a bit on this rifle, partially I think it's because the scope only has 2 turrets making it imbalanced, but I also think it's just not meant for a heavier rifle. It doesn't lean on my LWRC which is extremely odd to me because my LWRC and the .308 weigh about the same. Maybe the .308 weighs more with the scope and a loaded magazine. 

After talking to a friend he gave me some tips on mounting the scope properly so I don't give up on the mount just yet. Torqued the screws down accordingly. I did just order 2 boxes of Black Hills 168 gr. so hopefully I'll get a better zero. My BZO was awful, but on a regular target my shooting wasn't horrible for how fucky my set up was.

I have extra 175 gr fed match ammo.  If you want to meet up.  Ill shoot it with you for free.  Being semper fi and what not. My home base is south jersey shooting club if you want to meet up there.  

I am down with this idea. Maybe next week? Winslow is a bit of a trip for me, maybe if we plan it far enough in advance I can do that, but I belong to Easton Fish & Game which may be closer for you as well?

I’m surprised to hear the di gun has so much more felt recoil than a piston gun. My impressions have been exactly the opposite. I shot my Colt 6940 vs Golf Battery’s Colt 6940P, and I thought it recoiled more than my DI rifle. Not really a harder recoil,  i guess I should say the recoil pulse was different than the DI gun. Sharper is a good word. The two rifles were of near identical configuration. 

 Not that it’s a big deal...it was just a perception. 

My Colt LE901 (.308) has much less felt recoil than my 5.56 guns....at about the same weight. 

I suppose it depends on the make and model. My LWRC SPR has little to no recoil, but a majority of the parts made by LWRC are not milspec. In comparison to my old Colt LE6920 there is much less recoil in my LWRC. I haven't shot any other .308 to compare this rifle to, but if you're used to how a 5.56/.223 carbine shoots and expecting that of a .308 rifle it's a rude awakening. There are things I could do to mitigate recoil like a better buffer/spring and an adjustable gas block. We'll see I need more trigger time before I can start making expensive upgrades. Figuratively comparing a milspec .308 rifle to a very high end piston rifle like a REPR, a HK762MR or Sig 716 isn't a fair comparison, but if you've become accustomed to high end rifles, it's an adjustment.

Took her out today for a range day again, I had much better results! I upgraded the scope mount from the PA one to a Burris PEPR under warranty because the PA one broke my first outing, at least this time my scope wasn't jumping all around everytime I pulled the trigger. I also upgraded the stock trigger to a Geissele G2S. I upgraded the G2S to a SSA-E on my LWRC M6IC so I put the G2S in the Windham. Also a better bipod (UTG tactical). I used up the remains of the Federal 147gr FMJ and I also used some PRVI 155gr HPBT and saw a huge improvement.

 

 

 

With the 147 FMJ I was shooting sub 1" groups at best, 3" worst. Wind was really swirling around today at EFGA, constantly making windage adjustments, also not gonna lie some of my shots were rushed.

 

(All of that to the right was 62 gr 5.56 from my lwrc shooting with an MRO, like I said very windy today)

 

 

With the 155 HPBT I was shooting .5" groups easily and at worst, 1.5". Great rifle. My next upgrades will likely be a heavier buffer/spring and some washers for the pivot pin to eliminate whatever play I have because it's annoying and noticable.

 

 

 

A rushed shot is a wasted shot. Just realize that you dont get better by putting alot of lead downrange. If you do it that way.  All youre doing is wasting money and gaining nothing.    You get better by controled shots.  Every shot counts. Well work on this.  Also.  Recoil on a di rifle.  Wether its 556 or 308. Is not an issue.  I can shoot an 82a1 and handle the recoil almost the same as any other semi 308 platform.  Di or piston.  The recoil is so nominal.  You cant blame it on the weapon.  It’ll happen ill show you. 

I’m not blaming it on the weapon, I’m blaming it on myself for not handling it properly. I’ve put 300 rounds through the rifle and it was my 2nd time taking it out, this time a much better experience than my last and still getting accustomed to a new platform (for me). with the 147gr ammo I was getting better placement than I did my first outing in February so i’m happy about that. When I switched to the 155gr hpbt was an better result, like you & discussed last time that ammo and trigger should be addressed before anything else.

Now that I’ve put 300 rounds down range with this rifle, I’m a little more comfortable operating it so I can really hunker down on technique. A heavier buffer won’t happen just yet, that will be down the road if I still find issues. That being said we’ll need to meet up soon!

Respectfully given advice - Develop some basic shooting fundamentals.

You should have mastered that rifle already with 300 rounds through it.

Get a coach, take a course, read.

That rifle should be sorted out before you ever hit the range.

Any factory ammo fired in an appropriate twist should shoot a minimum of 2" at 100yds and that would suck.

You have good equipment now and it is all you. Get serious.

Why heavier buffer?

41 minutes ago, Old School said:

Respectfully given advice - Develop some basic shooting fundamentals.

You should have mastered that rifle already with 300 rounds through it.

Get a coach, take a course, read.

That rifle should be sorted out before you ever hit the range.

Any factory ammo fired in an appropriate twist should shoot a minimum of 2" at 100yds and that would suck.

You have good equipment now and it is all you. Get serious.

I agree, those groupings look scattered all over, but they are all sub .5" groupings, regardless if they hit center mass or not. Once you take it off a sight in target, everything I put on paper was within a vital zone of the target. On the Q target I was aiming for head shots the entire time and you can see I destroyed that zone I wasn't really aiming for center mass on that target and that was all with 147gr ammo. What I found is I need to work out a more stable position for my non shooting hand that will prevent the barrel and muzzle from jumping around, which will fix a lot of my issues. Shooting from the prone with bipod, no problem. Shooting from the bench with bipod, need to figure out a proper grip with my non shooting hand.

I agree, getting some instruction would be beneficial as well, but putting rounds down range and getting comfortable behind a rifle helps too.

8 minutes ago, JR88USMC said:

I agree, those groupings look scattered all over, but they are all sub .5" groupings, regardless if they hit center mass or not. Once you take it off a sight in target, everything I put on paper was within a vital zone of the target. On the Q target I was aiming for head shots the entire time and you can see I destroyed that zone I wasn't really aiming for center mass on that target and that was all with 147gr ammo. What I found is I need to work out a more stable position for my non shooting hand that will prevent the barrel and muzzle from jumping around, which will fix a lot of my issues. Shooting from the prone with bipod, no problem. Shooting from the bench with bipod, need to figure out a proper grip with my non shooting hand.

I agree, getting some instruction would be beneficial as well, but putting rounds down range and getting comfortable behind a rifle helps too.

Shoot small miss small.  Try a 3/4" dot as your target and focus.

That off hand should be under your butt stock even glove your hand.  If it's a folding bipod, load it up pushing forward slightly.  

Breath control and figure 8 over your point of impact.  Pressure on your trigger so you don't even know when it's going to break.

I'd love to see you shooting 1" with factory ammo.  You can do it.

 

so you don't think I should use my non shooting hand to firmly grab the barrel for better control?

13 hours ago, JR88USMC said:

I also used some PRVI 155gr HPBT and saw a huge improvement.

PPU is the best value in practice match ammo.  For actual matches, you'd probably want to use hand loads to eek out that extra .10 moa.

1 hour ago, JR88USMC said:

Shooting from the prone with bipod, no problem. Shooting from the bench with bipod, need to figure out a proper grip with my non shooting hand.

Are you loading the bipod?  Once I learned this technique, my groups improved greatly.

13 hours ago, JR88USMC said:

some washers for the pivot pin to eliminate whatever play I have because it's annoying and noticable.

You can eliminate receiver slop with about one penny's worth of painters tape.  I did this to my SPR and it locks up solid.  Take about an inch and a half of good blue painters tape and cut it into strips a little wider than the wall of the lower (the mating surface).  Clean the contact surface real good with alcohol to remove all oil and solvents.  Put down two layers of tape and trim with a razor or exacto knife.  depending on the size of the gap, you may need to add another layer, or even use just one layer. 

Simple, cheap and it works fantastic.

1 hour ago, JR88USMC said:

so you don't think I should use my non shooting hand to firmly grab the barrel for better control?

I use a bean bag under the stock and squeeze it with my non-trigger hand to adjust elevation.

24 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

PPU is the best value in practice match ammo.  For actual matches, you'd probably want to use hand loads to eek out that extra .10 moa.

Are you loading the bipod?  Once I learned this technique, my groups improved greatly.

You can eliminate receiver slop with about one penny's worth of painters tape.  I did this to my SPR and it locks up solid.  Take about an inch and a half of good blue painters tape and cut it into strips a little wider than the wall of the lower (the mating surface).  Clean the contact surface real good with alcohol to remove all oil and solvents.  Put down two layers of tape and trim with a razor or exacto knife.  depending on the size of the gap, you may need to add another layer, or even use just one layer. 

Simple, cheap and it works fantastic.

No I don't load the Bipod, I guess I should. These are all things I'm learning  isn't that man law, to learn by trial and error?

2 hours ago, JR88USMC said:

No I don't load the Bipod, I guess I should. These are all things I'm learning  isn't that man law, to learn by trial and error?

Youtube and some other websites were a great resource for me. After doing many things the hard way, I eventually learned to learn by other people's mistakes. 

 

On 4/6/2018 at 0:33 PM, Scorpio64 said:

After doing many things the hard way, I eventually learned to learn by other people's mistakes. 

 

^^^ This

Whenever possible I try to stand on the shoulders of giants.

2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

PPU is the best value in practice match ammo.  For actual matches, you'd probably want to use hand loads to eek out that extra .10 moa.

Are you loading the bipod?  Once I learned this technique, my groups improved greatly.

You can eliminate receiver slop with about one penny's worth of painters tape.  I did this to my SPR and it locks up solid.  Take about an inch and a half of good blue painters tape and cut it into strips a little wider than the wall of the lower (the mating surface).  Clean the contact surface real good with alcohol to remove all oil and solvents.  Put down two layers of tape and trim with a razor or exacto knife.  depending on the size of the gap, you may need to add another layer, or even use just one layer. 

Simple, cheap and it works fantastic.

Or build your own with a mega lower. Polymer tipped set screw slop removal device. Thank you @Displaced Texan and @MidwestPX for suggesting mega

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

^^^ This

Whenever possible I try to stand on the shoulders of giants.

Or several smaller people, when combined, are as tall as a giant.

I don't think managing recoil has anything to do with the bad groups. There are PRS guys out there who let the rifle free recoil and still shoot under 1moa. Not being a piston has nothing to do with it either. My DI 308 shoots under 1 MOA out to 1,000yards. No problems with recoil. I can track the bullet all the way to the target. 

 

I think the blame is three fold. Shooter, ammo, rifle. In that order. 

 

As said before; learn the fundamentals of marksmanship. Trigger control and follow through. 

Get better ammo. M2 ball isn't what you should be shooting for sub MOA groups. I have gotten sub MOA results out of 168gr PPU, 175gr Freedom Munitions and 168/175gr FGMM. You can get a 200 rounds of 168 or 175 FGMM for $200 delivered from Target Sports. 

Im also gonna say it; don't expect sub MOA results from a Whindom Weaponry anything. Just sayin.