14 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Right. Because the economics are identical across the state. 

love stupid posts like this.  No offense but I've forgotten more from teaching econ and finance in the graduate business schools at NYU and Rutgers than I care to remember but pretty sure variables are NOT that prohibitive from regional perspectives like this in NJ

No one will dispute that micro differences in regional areas of said market exist however, no where is it so prohibitive that the model needs to one vs the other unless the capital model used mandates it (less money up front, investor payout, expected sales to usage per sq/ft etc etc).  Now a smart person would realize that timing is a more important variable here than the actual micro differences in regional locale from say Jackson to Monmouth Cnty as the big wammiee here is the up front costs as WE ALL KNOW THE FIXED COSTS ARE NADA.   ah I digress

Of note, most business that employ this model need massive foot traffic to survive and evidence it's not working is in the pricing model.  No this is not the same as Costco or BJs

9 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

love stupid posts like this.  No offense but I've forgotten more from teaching econ and finance in the graduate business schools at NYU and Rutgers than I care to remember

Apparently you aced the class on Internet Douchebaggery too. 

Look, I don’t know this market.  You may be right that the differences between different locations is small compared to their costs.  Maybe they aren’t.   Certainly I’d expect just the real estate and construction costs alone to be a huge factor and those vary by location. 

But whatever.  If they don’t and their cost structure is mainly greed-driven then this place will suffer and ultimately fold. 

Not sure I get the blood in the water for the last few posts, but places like guns for hire do rely volume and special classes vs. the weekend walk in's like many of us on here. I'm not a GFH member, but a while back out of state guys were renting and a box of Remington 9mm was - $27 (where it's normally $10). Their model is to get a one-timers and out of town visitors in at high fees. 

Longshots has probably the best membership deal, since if you sign up for a year you can go in on weekends between 8-10 and get a port at no charge - that means if you go twice a month for a year you're in the black.

I think this new place has two disadvantages - GFH is literally 5 minutes closer to NYC and you have to pass by it to get to Reloaderz, and they are near this kinda awkward u-turn if you're on 23 North. I'd rather pay the $30 once every few months and keep my Cherry Ridge membership for most shooting. 

Not sure I get the blood in the water for the last few posts, but places like guns for hire do rely volume and special classes vs. the weekend walk in's like many of us on here. I'm not a GFH member, but a while back out of state guys were renting and a box of Remington 9mm was - $27 (where it's normally $10). Their model is to get a one-timers and out of town visitors in at high fees. 

Longshots has probably the best membership deal, since if you sign up for a year you can go in on weekends between 8-10 and get a port at no charge - that means if you go twice a month for a year you're in the black.

I think this new place has two disadvantages - GFH is literally 5 minutes closer to NYC and you have to pass by it to get to Reloaderz, and they are near this kinda awkward u-turn if you're on 23 North. I'd rather pay the $30 once every few months and keep my Cherry Ridge membership for most shooting. 

Well GFH doesn't look to be in too good of shape so their timing maybe perfect.

 

As for the cheaper Monmouth and Middlesex deals we do need to admit CJRPC is a non profit. However UHGC manages to do it for $400 a year no other fees 24/7. I was debating whether to renew UHGC and this post made my decision for me. If you guys are paying $400 + range time it is a steal comparatively.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Is this the wrong time to tell everyone I teach English literature in Princeton?

Reading all of this BS & supposition is ALMOST entertaining.

Luxury Ranges provide an EXPERIENCE.  They charge what the market will bear, as they should.

Comparing an indoor luxury range with freezin' your stones off outside is just plain stupid.  Different as apples & oranges.  Some folks drive Chevy's & some drive Audi's, Beamer's, Benz, Land Rover, Maserati.  The amenities & price point match the demographics.  North Jersey is loaded with NYC commuters that make six figure salaries.  Folks that drop between $1,500 - $3,000 per month just in property taxes.  Folks that spend $5 - $10K on a bicycle.  Own horses & pay stable fees.  Own a beach house too.  It's all about perspective & disposable income.

Put simply, none of us "Cheapsters" are going to invest $2,500 for a VIP membership.  That also means we won't be sipping FREE coffee & having FREE snacks with rock stars & the like.

Everybody needs to concentrate on bringing more kids & women to the range, instead of pissin' & moanin' about who gets what for a range fee!

10 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Everybody needs to concentrate on bringing more kids & women to the range, instead of pissin' & moanin' about who gets what for a range fee!

Spot on!

6 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Reading all of this BS & supposition is ALMOST entertaining.

Luxury Ranges provide an EXPERIENCE.  They charge what the market will bear, as they should.

Comparing an indoor luxury range with freezin' your stones off outside is just plain stupid.  Different as apples & oranges.  Some folks drive Chevy's & some drive Audi's, Beamer's, Benz, Land Rover, Maserati.  The amenities & price point match the demographics.  North Jersey is loaded with NYC commuters that make six figure salaries.  Folks that drop between $1,500 - $3,000 per month just in property taxes.  Folks that spend $5 - $10K on a bicycle.  Own horses & pay stable fees.  Own a beach house too.  It's all about perspective & disposable income.

Put simply, none of us "Cheapsters" are going to invest $2,500 for a VIP membership.  That also means we won't be sipping FREE coffee & having FREE snacks with rock stars & the like.

Everybody needs to concentrate on bringing more kids & women to the range, instead of pissin' & moanin' about who gets what for a range fee!

LOL...

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

There are only so many Yuppies around who can pay for those membership fees... and I would assume, MOST of those guys already have a membership at GFH or RTSP, or at one of the private ranges.

Keep in mind, the economy has been terrific and there was great focus on shooting in NJ.  What happens when it turns?

As far as the experience?  All of these ranges are nice, but they are still ranges... I have not seen happy endings provided in any of the VIP lounges yet to justify the "VIP" treatment. 

But yes, being privy to some of the financials behind here..., the majority of the success has been in good times, brand new shooters for whom a $200 day at the range once every few months is an "Experience."

But... instead of "cheapsters" I would say experienced gun guys.  There is plenty of wealthy people with Cherry Ridge, Old Bridge and CJRPC memberships who can use a calculator.  More than that... it is about safety... notice how you generally don't have as many shooting accidents at a private gun club versus a public range?

 

14 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Everybody needs to concentrate on bringing more kids & women to the range, instead of pissin' & moanin' about who gets what for a range fee!

 

3 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Spot on!

Yes... and who do you think does a more effective service?  Paying $300 to take your kids shooting at a range (rentals, walk ons, etc.)  OR  Like we did at the clay shoot?  Or the Kids shoot free or women's day events that private clubs hold?

Just recently here at a local range they did a kids fishing, hunting and shooting day.  Bussed in kids and everyone pitched in.

Charging high range fees or catering to "yuppies" does very little to create long term gun owners.

Catering to those willing to pay for the "experience" also does little.

The most active people in the gun rights community are those that are involved and belong to organizations... such as yours.  

7 hours ago, Lakota said:

Thats why I prefer RTSP. 

I prefer not to have unfriendly if not outright hostile RO's walking around in plate carriers with two guns at the ready (clearly to shoot me with), one on their belt and the other attached to the front of their plate carriers. Each to their own I guess!

16 minutes ago, Maksim said:

LOL...

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

There are only so many Yuppies around who can pay for those membership fees... and I would assume, MOST of those guys already have a membership at GFH or RTSP, or at one of the private ranges.

Keep in mind, the economy has been terrific and there was great focus on shooting in NJ.  What happens when it turns?

As far as the experience?  All of these ranges are nice, but they are still ranges... I have not seen happy endings provided in any of the VIP lounges yet to justify the "VIP" treatment. 

But yes, being privy to some of the financials behind here..., the majority of the success has been in good times, brand new shooters for whom a $200 day at the range once every few months is an "Experience."

But... instead of "cheapsters" I would say experienced gun guys.  There is plenty of wealthy people with Cherry Ridge, Old Bridge and CJRPC memberships who can use a calculator.  More than that... it is about safety... notice how you generally don't have as many shooting accidents at a private gun club versus a public range?

 

Maks, we agree more than we disagree.  In my mind it's all about nuance & perception.  Yes eventually North Jersey MIGHT run out of Yuppies willing to pay for a luxury experience.  Taking one look at a typical 2-3 hour wait at most indoor luxury ranges on weekends dispels the saturation point argument for the time being.  From an economics standpoint, the "tell" will be seen along the Rt. 17 corridor in Bergen County's town of Ramsey.  Ramsey's Rt. 17 is loaded with nearly every high-end car importer.  When they start laying-off sales staff & shrinking their inventories then I'll be concerned for luxury ranges, not before.

There may not be "Happy Endings" in the VIP lounges but the market is willing to bear the price-point and being able to cut waiting lines to get a port appeals to some, so it will exist whether you & I like it or not.

Luxury ranges enjoy a unique appeal like no other.  Taking an Uber from NYC to a range, shooting with a group for a couple hours renting guns & buying ammo is a "Thing"!  It's something us "Cheapsters" & experienced gun guys & gals won't do.  Yes I separated "Cheapsters & "Experienced" because they employ a similar mindset even though they start from a different perspective.  "Experienced Shooters" like myself remember being handed a $5 dollar bill (at age 12) to go into K-Mart to buy a 500 round brick of .22's & giving their Dad the CHANGE since it was only $3.99 on SALE!  "Cheapsters" can be made outta $$$ and simply be allergic to spending it  .

Most gun owners are casual owners that don't know a mag ban goes into effect on 10 December.  The Forum is filled with such banter.  It's like reading "The Awakening", lol!  Yes they can use a calculator.  Some even have common sense.

Safety wise the luxury ranges excel.  Their RSO's are well trained and kind to the customers.  What you call a "shooting accident" I refer to as a "DELIBERATE" since suicide isn't an accident, it's a deliberate act.  Unaccompanied men aren't allowed to rent guns at most luxury ranges for that reason.  A private club member (OBRPC, CJR&PC, etc.) generally doesn't need to go to the range to rent a gun to do harm to themselves since they already OWN firearms.  I've never been swept at a luxury range.

45 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

Yes... and who do you think does a more effective service?  Paying $300 to take your kids shooting at a range (rentals, walk ons, etc.)  OR  Like we did at the clay shoot?  Or the Kids shoot free or women's day events that private clubs hold?

Just recently here at a local range they did a kids fishing, hunting and shooting day.  Bussed in kids and everyone pitched in.

Charging high range fees or catering to "yuppies" does very little to create long term gun owners.

Catering to those willing to pay for the "experience" also does little.

The most active people in the gun rights community are those that are involved and belong to organizations... such as yours.  

I see both sides to this coin.  High range fees keep folks from exploring gun ownership & the fun of shooting.  Ranges like GFH have cut their walk-on fee down to just $10 for Tony Simon's Diversity Shoots (age 8 & up), Second Amendment Women Port Meet-Ups, etc.  So those that what to be the "Tip of the Spear" for 2A can & do recognize the challenge of presenting an affordable-by-the-masses program.

Catering to those willing to pay for the experience gives the luxury ranges a front seat as far as making donations to support both their local communities and especially the gun community in general and Second Amendment groups in specific.

You're right about the gun rights community.  Thank-you!

~R

3 hours ago, Maksim said:

 OR  Like we did at the clay shoot?  

Wha???

2 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

I see both sides to this coin.  High range fees keep folks from exploring gun ownership & the fun of shooting.  Ranges like GFH have cut their walk-on fee down to just $10 for Tony Simon's Diversity Shoots (age 8 & up), Second Amendment Women Port Meet-Ups, etc.  So those that what to be the "Tip of the Spear" for 2A can & do recognize the challenge of presenting an affordable-by-the-masses program.

Catering to those willing to pay for the experience gives the luxury ranges a front seat as far as making donations to support both their local communities and especially the gun community in general and Second Amendment groups in specific.

You're right about the gun rights community.  Thank-you!

~R

The original point I made a while back was that the indoor membership models only really make sense for what I’d say are the people who own their own and bring ammo. Of all the models, longshots actually offers free range time on weekends (early am) and weekdays. This is what I see as the best bang for buck (excluding outdoor ranges).

p.s.- pretty sure “tip of the spear” is trademarked and that guy will come for royalties!

3 hours ago, Maksim said:

Charging high range fees or catering to "yuppies" does very little to create long term gun owners.

Catering to those willing to pay for the "experience" also does little.

The most active people in the gun rights community are those that are involved and belong to organizations... such as yours.  

To this point I'd say that the "long term gun owners" can use as many of the casual/yuppie/occasional shooter in our corner as possible.

I can't afford a membership at Reloaderz or GFH (and I can't rationalize buying a membership and STILL paying each time I go) but the more people who go in and out of those places with a positive experience the better.

Do I wish there was a special rate for "serious" shooters like us?  Absolutely.  But since they don't, I hope they get as many noobs and occasional shooters in as possible.  Going to the range for a few hours and having a great time shooting some black fully semi-automatic assault rifles with large clips can provide a little education and demystify guns a bit. They may not become vocal 2nd amendment advocates, but they may be less likely to be vocal against it.

1 hour ago, Clifton1979 said:

The original point I made a while back was that the indoor membership models only really make sense for what I’d say are the people who own their own and bring ammo. Of all the models, longshots actually offers free range time on weekends (early am) and weekdays. This is what I see as the best bang for buck (excluding outdoor ranges).

p.s.- pretty sure “tip of the spear” is trademarked and that guy will come for royalties!

I respectfully disagree.  Free range time when nobody wants to be there at the crack of dawn on a weekend isn't really a bargain after you've been out late the night before.  Weekdays are great for retirees, but not working stiffs.

You've deliberately excluded member benefits such as discounts on all of the classes a typical luxury range offers.  Take enough classes and the member fee almost pays for itself.  

Keep in mind when drawing comparisons to compare training programs and the levels of instructors.  Joe Blow no-frills range ain't packin' classrooms to hear Massad Ayoob for an entire weekend including live fire at the range  

If you paid me to be at a range before 9am on a Sunday I might consider going.

All of this BS still doesn't get me clays flying thru the air to dust or buy me a membership to an outdoor range that allows me to "play w/ EXPLOSIVES" aka Black Powder.  I'm a Shootist.  I don't "fit" into your box  

 

4 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

I respectfully disagree.  Free range time when nobody wants to be there at the crack of dawn on a weekend isn't really a bargain after you've been out late the night before.  Weekdays are great for retirees, but not working stiffs.

You've deliberately excluded member benefits such as discounts on all of the classes a typical luxury range offers.  Take enough classes and the member fee almost pays for itself.  

Keep in mind when drawing comparisons to compare training programs and the levels of instructors.  Joe Blow no-frills range ain't packin' classrooms to hear Massad Ayoob for an entire weekend including live fire at the range  

If you paid me to be at a range before 9am on a Sunday I might consider going.

All of this BS still doesn't get me clays flying thru the air to dust or buy me a membership to an outdoor range that allows me to "play w/ EXPLOSIVES" aka Black Powder.  I'm a Shootist.  I don't "fit" into your box  

 

I’m a working stiff and like to get to the indoor range early on a weekend to avoid being shot in the back by the family of 17 who want to rent a “machine gun”.

On classes, not all memberships give discounts, but yes, if it’s a 10% off per class at $200 and you take 10 classes, there’s value, but you’ve got to spend like $600 to be a member plus the cost of class which is a lot of money.

Everyone is a unique snowflake, so yea, you don’t fit in my box - but many in fact do.

14 hours ago, runcibleman said:

I prefer not to have unfriendly if not outright hostile RO's walking around in plate carriers with two guns at the ready (clearly to shoot me with), one on their belt and the other attached to the front of their plate carriers. Each to their own I guess!

lol .. muscle doesn't scare me.  Also every one of their RO's that i have talked to are the nicest of folks, male and female both.  They may look rugged, since most of the them are active/retired-LEO/Military, but i never seen any hostility out of a single one of them.  

17 hours ago, voyager9 said:

Apparently you aced the class on Internet Douchebaggery too. 

Look, I don’t know this market.  You may be right that the differences between different locations is small compared to their costs.  Maybe they aren’t.   Certainly I’d expect just the real estate and construction costs alone to be a huge factor and those vary by location. 

But whatever.  If they don’t and their cost structure is mainly greed-driven then this place will suffer and ultimately fold. 

not at all, your response was flippent and you followed up with a gem

can't help it if you think you know more than you do and run at the mouth like an ass with diarrhea.  Now go back to the kiddie table and let the adults talk

 

back on track, this thread has really taken a turn.  At the end of the day, high fees do nothing to promote the sport in the state however, business can do whatever they choose to do and the consumer will dictate success here.  Still think you are nuts to pay for time while paying for a membership but if that's what people choose to do then so be it

not all ranges charge for their classes either, that's a foolish argument made here.

16 hours ago, Clifton1979 said:

Not sure I get the blood in the water for the last few posts, but places like guns for hire do rely volume and special classes vs. the weekend walk in's like many of us on here. I'm not a GFH member, but a while back out of state guys were renting and a box of Remington 9mm was - $27 (where it's normally $10). Their model is to get a one-timers and out of town visitors in at high fees. 

Longshots has probably the best membership deal, since if you sign up for a year you can go in on weekends between 8-10 and get a port at no charge - that means if you go twice a month for a year you're in the black.

I think this new place has two disadvantages - GFH is literally 5 minutes closer to NYC and you have to pass by it to get to Reloaderz, and they are near this kinda awkward u-turn if you're on 23 North. I'd rather pay the $30 once every few months and keep my Cherry Ridge membership for most shooting. 

no blood in the water, guy was flippent needlessly and his response confirmed he's dikhead, not a bright one at that

15 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Reading all of this BS & supposition is ALMOST entertaining.

Luxury Ranges provide an EXPERIENCE.  They charge what the market will bear, as they should.

Comparing an indoor luxury range with freezin' your stones off outside is just plain stupid.  Different as apples & oranges.  Some folks drive Chevy's & some drive Audi's, Beamer's, Benz, Land Rover, Maserati.  The amenities & price point match the demographics.  North Jersey is loaded with NYC commuters that make six figure salaries.  Folks that drop between $1,500 - $3,000 per month just in property taxes.  Folks that spend $5 - $10K on a bicycle.  Own horses & pay stable fees.  Own a beach house too.  It's all about perspective & disposable income.

Put simply, none of us "Cheapsters" are going to invest $2,500 for a VIP membership.  That also means we won't be sipping FREE coffee & having FREE snacks with rock stars & the like.

Everybody needs to concentrate on bringing more kids & women to the range, instead of pissin' & moanin' about who gets what for a range fee!

absolutely, do this often and think it's vital.  I'll be teaching a friends wife next weekend.  It's easier to do this when the range fees are not stupidly priced which is what the crux of some of the arguments are.  It's a valid point, if you make it expensive, you are not bringing too many people to the range.  I also think the stereotype of the six figure nothern guy paying 1500-3k in prop taxes is ridiculous in this debate.  I know what I make, pay, assets etc etc etc and I'm still not paying $400 for a membership and paying range fees on top of that.  I don't think you can find a better deal than cjrpc but ecstatic other ranges are opening up for obvious and selfish reasons

 

1 hour ago, myhatinthering said:

absolutely, do this often and think it's vital.  I'll be teaching a friends wife next weekend.  It's easier to do this when the range fees are not stupidly priced which is what the crux of some of the arguments are.  It's a valid point, if you make it expensive, you are not bringing too many people to the range.  I also think the stereotype of the six figure nothern guy paying 1500-3k in prop taxes is ridiculous in this debate.  I know what I make, pay, assets etc etc etc and I'm still not paying $400 for a membership and paying range fees on top of that.  I don't think you can find a better deal than cjrpc but ecstatic other ranges are opening up for obvious and selfish reasons

 

Kudos for teaching/mentoring!  I wish more folks would do the same!

Agreed, yes it's easier for most folks to mentor at private clubs.  Little to ZERO added range fees.  It's quieter w/o M-4's going off in the next port.  Makes it much easier to teach when a student can HEAR range commands!  That's where I do it too.  I even bring my Little Webber charcoal grill & make burgers & dogs for planned extended days.  Grill right inside the Shooting Pit  .  And as an Eagle Dad, I leave no trace.

I don't "debate" on these Forums, I merely state my opinion.  It's a take it or leave it sort of thing and a reader is free to do as they wish.  Stating you won't pay a membership fee plus range time drops you into the "Experienced" or "Cheapster" scenario, so you get to pick, lol.  The illustration I provided is fact, not fiction.  I have friends with 200 gun collections & $5K bicycles.  One scan of the parking lot at a luxury range will prove my point.  In fact, on a CNJFO Hog Hunt a few years ago, one of our Life Members stuffed an ice-filled hog into the trunk of his white Maserati to take back to Jersey to the Butcher's!

You & I are cut from the same bolt of cloth.  Neither of us belongs to a luxury range for the SAME REASONS.  Yes, CJ & other ranges like the Club I belong to offer their members a great value since they're non-profits & don't have to pay dividends to investors.  I share your excitement & pleasure that many commercial ranges are providing a safe outlet for all of the newer shooters that bought guns out of fear during the last Administration.  Those folks need an outlet to learn safe handling, attend training classes, and develop lifelong skill sets so they can one day teach others like we do.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Rosey

http://www.cnjfo.com 

I guess this is why I belong to CJRPC & NHRPC!  

1 hour ago, Smokin .50 said:

Kudos for teaching/mentoring!  I wish more folks would do the same!

Agreed, yes it's easier for most folks to mentor at private clubs.  Little to ZERO added range fees.  It's quieter w/o M-4's going off in the next port.  Makes it much easier to teach when a student can HEAR range commands!  That's where I do it too.  I even bring my Little Webber charcoal grill & make burgers & dogs for planned extended days.  Grill right inside the Shooting Pit  .  And as an Eagle Dad, I leave no trace.

I don't "debate" on these Forums, I merely state my opinion.  It's a take it or leave it sort of thing and a reader is free to do as they wish.  Stating you won't pay a membership fee plus range time drops you into the "Experienced" or "Cheapster" scenario, so you get to pick, lol.  The illustration I provided is fact, not fiction.  I have friends with 200 gun collections & $5K bicycles.  One scan of the parking lot at a luxury range will prove my point.  In fact, on a CNJFO Hog Hunt a few years ago, one of our Life Members stuffed an ice-filled hog into the trunk of his white Maserati to take back to Jersey to the Butcher's!

You & I are cut from the same bolt of cloth.  Neither of us belongs to a luxury range for the SAME REASONS.  Yes, CJ & other ranges like the Club I belong to offer their members a great value since they're non-profits & don't have to pay dividends to investors.  I share your excitement & pleasure that many commercial ranges are providing a safe outlet for all of the newer shooters that bought guns out of fear during the last Administration.  Those folks need an outlet to learn safe handling, attend training classes, and develop lifelong skill sets so they can one day teach others like we do.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Rosey

http://www.cnjfo.com 

outstanding!!!!!!!!!  great job

the more people we each bring, the better it is for us

5 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

no blood in the water, guy was flippent needlessly and his response confirmed he's dikhead, not a bright one at that

I apologize if my posts were taken the wrong way. But yours were also much more adversarial than they needed to be.  I suggest we drop it since further posts like that on either side don’t help anything. 

 

As for Reloaderz. I hope they do well. NJ needs more ranges, of any and all types. Anything to expand the positive visibility and push back against the perceived stigma firearms have in this state. 

59 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

As for Reloaderz. I hope they do well. NJ needs more ranges, of any and all types. Anything to expand the positive visibility and push back against the perceived stigma firearms have in this state. 

I'll drink to that! 

1 hour ago, voyager9 said:

I apologize if my posts were taken the wrong way. But yours were also much more adversarial than they needed to be.  I suggest we drop it since further posts like that on either side don’t help anything. 

 

As for Reloaderz. I hope they do well. NJ needs more ranges, of any and all types. Anything to expand the positive visibility and push back against the perceived stigma firearms have in this state. 

I apologize too, I was wrong for going to the next level and won't happen again. 

the bad thing about this type of interface is there is no tone so sometimes we take things the wrong way. 

beer is on me!

I see nothing luxury about those ranges. If free drinks were brought to you while you lounged in a big man leather massage recliner while watching every sporting event from around the globe, and then there was an option for a free hand massage with steam room and sauna, then that is luxury.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

8 hours ago, voyager9 said:

14 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

 

I apologize if my posts were taken the wrong way. But yours were also much more adversarial than they needed to be.  I suggest we drop it since further posts like that on either side don’t help anything. 

 

 

6 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

I apologize too, I was wrong for going to the next level and won't happen again. 

the bad thing about this type of interface is there is no tone so sometimes we take things the wrong way. 

Nice to see people working things out for a change, kudos to both of you. 

Don't see much of that anymore. 

We need more of this, to stick together as a group and keep up the fight 

Sooo to sum up.. more ranges in new joisey the better. More joisey ‘n shooting guns the better!

pax