17 minutes ago, RUTGERS95 said:

the numbers don't lie really

If you are contending that the 5.7 is a top performing round because of its testing results, then indeed the numbers DO lie in the case of the 5.7.  The point of testing is to attempt to predict real world performance. If the 5.7 gets all A's in testing but all F's in real world results, then the testing results clearly will not predict accurately for this caliber. But I dont recall the 5.7 doing all that well in testing.  Even in the specialization of the P90 for the narrow scope of body armored bad guys has been relegated to obscurity as there are much better solution today for that scenario.  None of the PDW borne calibers seems to have gained any traction because I dont think any of them have proven to even match up to 9mm performance.

11 hours ago, Shane45 said:

If you are contending that the 5.7 is a top performing round because of its testing results, then indeed the numbers DO lie in the case of the 5.7.  The point of testing is to attempt to predict real world performance. If the 5.7 gets all A's in testing but all F's in real world results, then the testing results clearly will not predict accurately for this caliber. But I dont recall the 5.7 doing all that well in testing.  Even in the specialization of the P90 for the narrow scope of body armored bad guys has been relegated to obscurity as there are much better solution today for that scenario.  None of the PDW borne calibers seems to have gained any traction because I dont think any of them have proven to even match up to 9mm performance.

I’m pretty sure you are cia or sumtin 

I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many Guns 

49 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many Guns 

Sure sure

23 hours ago, Shane45 said:

If you are contending that the 5.7 is a top performing round because of its testing results, then indeed the numbers DO lie in the case of the 5.7.  The point of testing is to attempt to predict real world performance. If the 5.7 gets all A's in testing but all F's in real world results, then the testing results clearly will not predict accurately for this caliber. But I dont recall the 5.7 doing all that well in testing.  Even in the specialization of the P90 for the narrow scope of body armored bad guys has been relegated to obscurity as there are much better solution today for that scenario.  None of the PDW borne calibers seems to have gained any traction because I dont think any of them have proven to even match up to 9mm performance.

pretty sure the ft hood shooter and doctors would disagree with this sentiment. 

obscurity due to cost and prohibitions on ammo selection. 

If it was such a great round, everyone would be using it. The fact that so many people that have the ability to pick whatever round/platform they want In order to hunt bad guys still don’t choose the 5.7 round, speaks volumes.

The fact remains - real world uses against determined bad guys show abysmal terminal effects.

Holding up 1 incident as your banner show a propensity for confirmation bias. I can find cases of one shot stops for a 22 short. Doesnt mean its a good choice. In fact the Dr. DOES agree with me. That is Dr. Gary Roberts, you may have heard the name?

"obscurity due to cost and prohibitions on ammo selection" Cost and prohibition for whom? I dont think you really know what your talking about. Agencies have no prohibition restrictions. Cost was not a factor from my observations. The weapons systems to an Agency were actually quite cheap.

Im repeating what HE stated as it succinctly answers the question.

"The fact that so many people that have the ability to pick whatever round/platform they want In order to hunt bad guys still don’t choose the 5.7 round, speaks volumes.

The fact remains - real world uses against determined bad guys show abysmal terminal effects."

 

 There is There is no confirmation bias whatsoever, the data doesn't lie. The problem is that we don't have very many real world scenarios so what we do have were forced to use. Again the numbers don't lie it's a hell of a round and probably the best round out of a pistol of the big 4

Im sorry but that simply isnt true. There is a lot of real world scenarios to draw from. A number of them are from Mil ops that you simply wont hear about. There are also a number of LE Ops than have been studied and the results were not good. There are only a very small handful of incidents where it seemed to perform well...which really supports shot placement being the best factor for effectiveness. I have been a student of terminal ballistics for a loooong time going all the way back to when I participated in the ammo lab. I have paid particular attention to the 5.7 in the past when I was Demoing P90's with LE Agencies. But hey, if you want to place the long bet that you have discovered the grail of effectiveness and everyone else, including those that study this stuff for a living, are wrong, march on brother!

My agency considered P90s for a time in 2004/2005 and I did a bunch of research into agencies that carried them. No one was happy with the ammo performance.

Almost every agency that I know of that had 5.7 duty guys have all switched back to 9/40/45 or .223/5.56 (platform depending). The switch almost always came shortly after shootings where the 5.7 performed terribly. 

Doc Roberts is a smart man, and when he talks about ballistics, you’d do well to listen. Buford Boone is another guy that knows his business when it comes to ballistics. They both agree - 5.7 is not a recommended round for duty or self defense use.

@Shane45 spook code name is ”viscous caulk”. I’m sure of it!!!

On 1/11/2020 at 8:35 AM, Shane45 said:

I'm just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many Guns 

Great movie

5.7 will relive a little like the 10mm did in 2019.  But, like the 10mm, it will go away again.  Why?  Because there are cheaper, more reliable and easier to shoot guns in better calibers.

So is the GSSC meet day tomorrow

20 hours ago, silverado427 said:

So is the GSSC meet day tomorrow

No

What's going on with the once a month  GSSC meet up  the day keeps changing. 

 

 

23 hours ago, silverado427 said:

What's going on with the once a month  GSSC meet up  the day keeps changing. 

 

 

this is news to me

 

Good evening everyone. Will there be a Tuesday night meet up for October?

Curious to know this also.  Does the "new" management offer the same deal for NJGF as the past mgmt?

 

On 9/30/2020 at 8:28 PM, DirtyDigz said:

Curious to know this also.  Does the "new" management offer the same deal for NJGF as the past mgmt?

 

If anyone knows then please let us know.