Shane45

maks, your call of duty is showing

128 grn. Which is why all ammo manufacturers try and emulate its balistics. 357sig for example. 9X23 is another. And to anser your question, I did on my first post in this thread on page two: "Well.... the answer depends on which state you live in. This state punishes capacity so I prefer a .45. If I lived in a free mans state, I would carry a 9mm. My opinion is handguns are poor stoppers independant of caliber. This was proven out by the studies we did of actual cases on the Ammolab. Of far greater importance is shot placement. We have all seen the guy absorb 13 rounds of 45 and the three people that all died of a single .22. So with the chance of hitting a vital being the real end game, I want the most chances to win."

One more lesson for you sirsloop. Why has the military changed its 5.56 ammo? Why is there so many reports of BG's taking 4 or 5 hits with ball 5.56 and not going down? Why do I not have any of those same concerns with civy 5.56? The ANSWER is energy transfer.....yet again. 5.56 that drills neat little holes through the target without transfering much energy to the target does little to stop the target. Civy 5.56 that literally explodes inside the target dumping almost 100% of its energy into the target is devastating to said target. I will check next week and see if any of the pictures I have from a military ammo test on actual flesh (not human) are confidential. If not I will post em up. Edited to add on second though I will not. This is not the place for them......

Ya know what sirsloop, yer right. There are magic bullets out there that turn all vital organs to goo. They drop the guy right there in his tracks twitching and crapping himself. You can relly on those and your other myths. I will rely on training for shot placement under stress because all research on the topic has PROVEN handguns are not great at stopping bad guys.

Sirsloop you need to go do some reading. Go look up what energy a 50BMG generates. Even if it were 50% transfer to the target that would be what, off the top of my head more than 3X the energy of a 30-06 at 100%. Im not sitting here pulling figures out of thin air. These are statistics from actual shootings for each caliber. Sorry if your a mag fanboy. Im caliber agnostic and pick the right one for what needs to be done. A cns shot frome a 38 special or a 44 will have the same effect. Anything outside of a direct hit to a vital brings in all the other factors. Also, you cannot compare rifle to pistol. The dynamics change dramatically with the increase of hyper velocity. What they CAN do is not in question. Its what they DID do thats important. Out of a metric ton of researched shootings, the 44's DIDNT do better. Thats not a prediction, thats what happened....

What you need to understand about shooting anything be it bear or perp is the needed energy transfer to the target and reaching a depth to reach vital organs. A .44 mag for example did not do as well as 9 or 45 statistically. Why? Too much energy that goes through a human target tranfering little of its energy to the target. Essentially an overpenetration issue. Now if you shoot a bear with a 45 with HP ammo, its probably going to be really pissed off AND your rounds may not have reached a depth to hit vitals. Now before you guys send me links of a bear stopped with a .380 a statistic of 1 is useless. The round needs to be matched to the mission just like everything else in shooting.

So how do you stem the tide of wanna be cool guys that think an R1 is ok for their first bike? I 100% believe this is a sport bike issue not a cc issue. As for the comments on loss.... well I know rider seemed to have a policy that if the frame aint cracked, it aint totalled :? FZ1, Hawk, Sportster, none of which are on the "HOT" list. Ask your insurance co what the cost is to insure a ZX10, CBR100R, GSXR1000, R1, specifically. Progressive online came in at +1700 for me

Handguns being poor stoppers is not a matter of debate, its fact. Nothing to argue here. But no one has come up with something as compact and portable thats better.....

Simple Jon, let me see newjack hustle his CBR 600 though the cones, if he can, its a better indication to me he can ride it versus a scooter!

"show me where it says the government should have ANY SAY on what size engine you "can handle" in ANY vehicle?" Go look at CDL licensing. goes far beyond engine size Captains licenses for ships I believe do to. Im pretty sure Pilots licenses do too.

Other countires have a really staged license scheme. You need to do a year in each catagory before moving up. For those of you saying dont tell me what size I can ride, its not. Its saying if you test on a scooter, stay on a scooter. I think it should be under 500/under 500. 231/500 makes no sense to me.

Heres the facts. I had a long conversation the the regional director at Rider Insurance. Heres what he had to say. Liter bike sportbikes are an 8 out of 10 total loss in this state. And closing in on 9 out of 10. Their investigation exposed that MANY of these riders bought a GSXR/R1/CBR/ZX as their FIRST bike and that a good many of them took their road test on a freekin scooter. How well does a scooter prepare you for something that closes in on 150mph from a dead stop in about 10 seconds? The car analogy is not applicable here. The differences are extreme. Its more like does a few tries at the stick of a cessna make you good to go flying a jumbo jet? The impact of not having any kind of match to what you test out on vs what you actually ride is a startling amount of fatalities and total losses. Now on the if you wanna go kill yourself side, well I believe you have that right. But on the total loss side, now you affect me. Because of all these kids racking em up, the cost to insure a liter bike EVEN FOR MY +40 ass with 1 ticket ever over 20 years ago is well over 2k a year!!!!!!

OK Ray Ray, you can use a handgun, Ill use my rifle, OK? :twisted:

A darwin awards candidate!

Well.... the answer depends on which state you live in. This state punishes capacity so I prefer a .45. If I lived in a free mans state, I would carry a 9mm. My opinion is handguns are poor stoppers independant of caliber. This was proven out by the studies we did of actual cases on the Ammolab. Of far greater importance is shot placement. We have all seen the guy absorb 13 rounds of 45 and the three people that all died of a single .22. So with the chance of hitting a vital being the real end game, I want the most chances to win.

"Riders who passed their driving test using a small motorcycle or scooter with an engine displacement, or size, of less than 231 cubic centimeters will be restricted to operating a bike with an engine size 500 cubic centimeters or less." UH OH. I actually agree with this one

MB for the win

Knock offs are for airsoft........ so you should be good.

Yes

I think your screwing the wrong one :shock:

:shock: :twisted:

IIRC CR did, then had a fire and banned them, then repealed the ban after about a year.

C'mon sirsloop, I know you have a miami vice fetish, get one

IIRC they were in the neighborhood of 10k :shock: Deflection is one of the biggest issues with machining Ti.

Radek, you have apparently never fired a MP5 in 10mm.... Speaking of lame, is that your bike in the avatar pic?