Shane45

Why even focus on the pin? I could swap the stock to a non pinned one in 2 minutes! The boiled down point is simply perception is the reality in this case IMHO.

ps. respectfull debate is never a problem for me I do not take a disagreement personally.

I think that you are either misinterpreting me or misunderstanding me. Im not claiming that a blind pin is the law. What I am saying is that those here to inforce the law, many of which have recieved their opinion or direction from the state police firearms division investigators, they advise to look for the blind pin. This was straight from them. So it does indeed, in my opinion, make you safer in terms of avoiding legal entanglement. Can you win in court if you crazy glued your entire stock together? Quite possibly. But why end up in court. How would it look to a jury if the prosecution showed manufacturer after manufacturer that uses a blind pin compared to a reassembly. The fact of the matter is that part of the conversation I had in mind was similer to what the OP has done. It was regarding my SCAR stock. I said that I could lathe turn a solid backbone to replace the mechanisms inside the scar stock. The answer was, "they will look for the blind pin, and it wont qualify as non reversable which is what we advise to LE and the courts...... and so, inside my SCAR stock is a blind pin....

"does the stock telescope? NO does the stock fold? NO unless there is LAW adding to that criteria... anything else is moot.." Again your missing the point. Will you win in court? Maybe. Why roll the dice. LE looks for a blind pin...........

Well, there is no law stating that a muzzle brake needs to be blind pinned and welded either. Yet that is what everyone does because it is viewed as the standard even though it exists no where in NJ statute or administrative code......

I could machine an entire ar from bar stock if I were so inclined, so what does a pin represent to me as far as permannency? Nothing. But it doesnt matter what it means to me, it matters what it means to those taking a look at the legality of what I possess......

Lets be clear here. I think MANY things can be won in court. However, I would much rather stay out of court! And so knowing the key elemment they look for is a blind pin....thats what I give em. Its my opinion that many do not realise that all these regs were simply poorly written legislation created by those simply looking for common denominators to ban "black rifles". They simply didnt realise that it would be so easily side stepped. Well keep in mind a lot of these people are still around in NJ govt and the intention was to keep black rifles out of NJ! But I often wonder if the poor legislation wasnt so poor and black rifles were still persona non grata, that there would have been enough of a movement to overturn this nonsense altogether. Because we have all found our ways around the nonsense, we tolerate it

Only direct verbal discussion with State police div of firearms investigation unit.... As usual, no clearly defined NJ statute or guide to make sure NJ doesnt manufacture criminals

The ones Ive seen done correctly are blind pinned into the buffer tube. This is "considered" permenant. Rearanging the parts is not.

Yep.

Its a fantastic rifle, but it is a bit on the heavy side. But the ability to swap barrels and the monolithic rail are terrific features IMO.

My humble opinion is that this will not pass muster. 2 reasons. 1 it is reversable, not permanant. They look for a blind pin.

Its true.

NJ v Pelleteri

Yeah 3k optics dont qualify either :wild: At any rate I have a DTA SRS with 308 and 338lm caliber kits inbound. Yeah I know I know. But ill give it a second dance since it has the 308 conversion. If it doesnt work out, Ill sell it off....again!

Wolfy, thats known as investigating in some circles

But the criminals will do it anyway since... their criminals!!!

It has been my experience that the us/them mentality has 2 distinct scources. One can be the operating environment of the LE agency. The other can be the agency its self. If your working "Beruit" I think that a U V.T disposition is likely to occur. But I have also seen in prevelent in agencies where it just seems to be the rhetoric of that particuler agency. I swear the brass on some PD's watch too much TV because I hear them quoting movie lines straight out of Lethal Weapon 3!!!! From a 10,000 ft view, it seems that if the brass and training officers of an egency are anti, then the "mood" of said agency follows suit. I cant even begin to count how many conversations with LE I have had when the position of said officer was only LE and mil should have guns. I have run into the rare officer that actually listenes to logic with an open mind and understands the arguments. And then there are those that defer to the "well thats how I feel" position with not a single shred of fact or logic to support their position. These are the officers that I believe come from "anti oriented agencies" because I can feel the programming in their position. Its clear their position is not their own. I actually intended to start a thread about the very topic of LE's that hold the position only LE and mill should have guns. Although I hesitate because I do not want an LE bashing thread as that is not my intention. But when you hear a statement like that from a particuler segment repeatedly, it bares looking into the reasoning behind it. I was in one of these debates 2 weeks ago with me Uncle and Godfather who is NYPD. It was pretty in depth and in my opinion he failed to present a single argument and what I heard over and over was "its because Im a cop I feel that way" The one statement he seemed to get rather wide eyed over is when I asked him how he would feel now that he is retired if he was not allowed to carry anymore. He reacted in near horrer saying he would feel unsafe and would be VERY upset. My answer of course was thats how we get to feel all the time. But it really got me thinking. Focusing in on the Mil and LE. Hmmmm So an officer in a state like the peoples republic of new jersey who returns to the ranks of normal citizen when he retires, gets to retain the ability to carry. But someone from the military who may have been all over the world and seen heavy action carrying all manor of full auto weapons and recieving the equivilent of hundreds of thousands of dollars in training, when returned to the civilian world CAN NOT CARRY. So in reality it becomes only LE can have guns in states like NJ. And that got me thinking even further. If your retired LE in NJ, you have to qualify every year to keep your CCW. But if you are one of the few civilian CCW holders in NJ, they dont have this requirement. So this begs the question of why do we have such a mish mash and swinging pendulum of different right for what amounts to all the same American citizens!!!!!! So the war veteran that returned from 2 tours in Iraq as a SF operator and trainer for special forces that came backed and served on local SWAT for 5 years and retired but did not qualify this year because he feels it is a moral issue to have to pay to qualify to maintain his right of self protection CAN NOT CARRY. But the guy that is a friend of the current court or political regime can having never served either mil or LE but knows the right people can without any training etc etc. This just demonstrates how bad the laws and system have become in my mind. To those officers that are pro 2A, I tip my hat to you and give you the recognition you deserve because in your field, I think its a bit of a tough run to hold the opinion you do. Especially if your in an agency with an anti overtone.

A simple solution in my mind would be when you ask for the paperwork, that a follow up statement that it is his right at that time to decide not to provide said paperwork. BLF I simply believe that the general public inherently believes, especially in this state, that they have a legal obligation to comply with the request. We both know that MANY officers use thses thought processes and the general publics lack of understanding their rights against them quite often. Well if your investigating someone to begin with, I understand the situation. However, in a case as described where a citizen has done nothing to bring attention to himself and gave no evidence whatsoever that he had done anything wrong, there should be no reason to start investigating him just because he excercised the right to protect himself. Shane

"nice battle rifles there. Although, why no bolt action love?" Because its a 308 battle rifle thread?

In my humble non expert opinion, if you cant prove ownership, the officer can indeed confiscate it because in new jersey all ownership is banned. The burden of proof is on the citizen. The words" posses at your own peril" is where this comes into play. It will then become your burdan to prove ownership and exception(guilty until proven innocent). In the mean time your posession is going to be hockey pucked around the evidence room until you can get in front of a judge to get it back in about 6 months if your lucky. This is why in the other thread I stated that although Im not required to, I carry copies of my PPP when transporting so I can nip it in the bud and prove ownership right ther on the spot so I dont have to fight out proving ownership/exception in front of a judge. IMO this is a dasterdly move by the state because most people ensnared in this perdicament may just decide the value of the pistol is far less than the attourney to reclaim it .

Dont worry Ill probably get another one LOL

" You can't establish PC after the request." I dont think I agree with this statement. If I ask to search your car because your giving off odd behaviors, which doesnt establish PC, and you decline, and I shine my flashlight into your back seat and see a bloody axe and a severed head, I think PC is established and will hold up.

Well, it looks like I will be joining the ranks of the DTA...again. Im betting I still wont get along to well with the trigger but.... I want a 338 again and an opportunity I couldnt pass up came along. The AIAW is again out the door Hava a hard time justifying it when my KAC is shooting identically, so if Im gonna have a bolt, its gonna be a magnum! Being able to train on the cheap is the new attraction for the SRS. Bullseye, would love to hear how you make out with the .260. Love the caliber!

Guys, may I suggest educating and civil debate. In the end I would rather convince BLF of the merits of our position rather than convince him the gun owning public is nothing but tude!