Dan

Cool totally understand your point, I sorta thread hijacked so was my fault anyways! I agree with your assessment, as the what is the main goal in turning a pistol into a carbine. Legally it seems to be a mess of a thing to do... as it would be a SBR or AOW. I owned a CX4 storm for a short time. Was a handly little gun, but I traded it in with some $$ for a Sig 556.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a pistol caliber carbine (type of rifle) would be classified as a rifle (16" barrel of course for NFA and many state laws), so putting a foregrip on it isn't a problem. The question in interest was around putting a foregrip on an actual pistol (manufactured, marketed, and sold as such). The caliber of the pistol would be irrelevant.

That's great information, thanks for that. Adhering to federal and state firearms laws is like navigating a labyrinth. The word "quagmire" comes to mind as well. Sometimes you wonder if the laws need a "reformat" to put it in computer terms.

Putting a foregrip on a pistol makes it an AOW needing a NFA stamp?

I'm really new to the whole scope-scene, as my prior experience has been with red-dot types. I was basically looking for something affordable... but with good specs and decent online reviews. I knew vortex from their affordable aimpoint type clone which always gets decent reviews. I just figured the same concept would apply to their scopes. I'm baffled as to why some of them are $2500 and others at $500 with what appears to be similar specs. I suppose just like anything else... depends what you are going to use it for. Competition, benchrest, military/LE... perhaps spending the $2000 and up will make a difference. For me, just fun target shooting... it doesnt make sense unless I had money to burn. It would be like a person spending 5K on golf clubs, who only plays a few times a year for fun. I problably lack the skill, time, and training needed to take advantage of the upper-crust rifles and scopes. I chose the Millett based on a few things. They seem to get decent reviews, pattern, specs (zoom and objective size), and style. Many reviews are very favorable, and those reviews that people said they had problems always seemed to be happy after they were sent back for warranty repairs. I read some reviews in which guys that own scopes from Nightforce and Leupold have purchased 1 or more Millett LRS's for their other rifles... their reasoning is affordability, and a lot of scope for the money. They're made in China along with most everything else.... problably the secret sauce in keeping the price down... along with why sometimes people get a lemon. A shooting meet/match sounds like great fun. Just let me get the rifle/scope in, and have some time to practice with it first.

Big update: I've changed my order to the Remington 700 Milspec 5R. After further review, seems the VTR tends to be more or less very inconsistent accuracy-wise. Taking into consideration Don and Jimmy's experiences with this model, and very favorable reviews... I've made the change. Cost a little more $$, but I think it will be worth it!

A comissions error in my favor that gets back payed before Jan 1st.

Just orderd a scope base from Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=50243/pid=23786/sku/Aluminum_Scope_Base_fits_Rem_700_SA

Don, sounds great. Will be sure to PM you when I get the rifle and have some range time to look forward to. Greg, that I don't know. This is my first rifle of this type (all my others come with picatinny rails). From what I can tell from the instruction manual, it only comes with mounting holes. The scope manual shows the rings on a picatinnny rail, so i'm assuming I need to order a picatinny base. I'll start looking for one now. Good catch, I would have been really upset not being able to mount everything up the day it comes!

Yea, Its my MO to move quickly when I put my mind to something. The quiet day at the house, snowed in gave me all day to research. The scope comes with mounting rings. My plan is to give them a try before looking into aftermarket rings.

Thanks everyone for the feedback! I've "pulled the trigger" on the Remington 700 VTR .308cal with the 5R rifling (cost $50 extra, but its the same as the M24 sniper rifle and the Milspec 5R rifling, figured it was worth it). I got it for $710 from Bud's Gunshop. Using Defensive Security as my FFL, Mel charges $35 FFL and $21 NICS. Plus I'm getting the $100 MIR from Remington. Good deal. I also chose the Millett LRS 56mm 6-25x scope, also from Bud's on the same order for $405. It had some dicey reviews from back in 2008, but later reviews are A-OK, and seems to be an excellent scope for the price. As a bonus, Bud's charges you their cash price if you use their credit card. I was instant approved, and have 25 days to send in the money. No problem on that, was nice to save the 3% on the order without having to wait to send a check and have it clear. After all is said and done on costs... I'm looking at a take home price of $1192 for the rifle and scope. $300 under budget which is always a good thing! I'll be sure to write a review of my first shooting outing with the rifle!

Thanks, sent him a PM

Thanks for the offer on shooting your Milspec 5r. I may be jumping the "gun" here on the VTR... as the rebate is doing what it is designed to do... force a decision! That Milspec 5r looks great, comes in at pretty much $1000 lowest price that I've found online. Still in my budget. We're talking $400 over the 700 VTR. Again I'm at odds with if the Milspec 5R is much better than the VTR or Savage FCP-K and worth the extra $400. I have read a bunch of online reviews and I've found nothing but what appears to be positive for all of these rifles mentioned. As for the triangle barrel, I can really care less about the shape, and more on how it shoots. So far I'm 70% sold on the VTR (based on remington reputation, online reviews, price) with the other 30% split on the FCP-K (Savage reputation, headspace adjustment capability, price) and Milspec 5r(based on solid military sniper tech, remington 700 reputation, real person review here).

That Sako TRG is one beauty, but alas out of my league. I'm now torn on that Rem 700 VTR. $700 at midwest hunters outlet, plus Remington has a $100 MIR if I purchase it by Dec 31st. Just a few days away! Reviews of both seem very good. The rem VTR has a triangular barrel, the Savage FCP has a fluted. Both have a muzzle brake for what its worth. the Sav has a 24" barrel versus the Rem 22". Not sure how that would really affect things.. So my choices thus far are narrowed down to the Savage 10 FCP-K ($789), and the Rem 700 VTR ($600 after MIR). If i'm going to choose the VTR, I will have to make a move tomorrow to get the rebate. Now , is the Savage worth the extra $200. For my purposes of shooting for fun, I'm thinking it may be diminishing returns...

Thanks for the advice. I haven't considered the 700 as I just thought the prices would be out of my range. Looks like I was wrong as there is a very nice 700 type that I found called the Model 700 VTR (Varmint Tactical Rifle). I guess its designed to go after militant ground hogs? Does anyone have experience with it? http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item/73827__Remington_Rifles_Shotguns_REM_84371_700_VTR_VAR_308.aspx?SR=1

Wow, thought my browser locked up , clicked post a few times. I dont know how to delete the duplicates... so lets use this as the main thread. Sorry!

I'm looking at an affordable bolt action long range rifle in .308. All my rifles in my collection are semi, EBR types, and I'm getting starting to get the itch to have something very accurate with a big high powered scope (like up to a 20x versus my aimpoints, eotech, even a 4x ATN scope that I currently have). Mind you , none of my EBR's have match components or barrels on them... and not interested in building one like that.... yet . Ultimately I'd love to have a match M1A, but cost prohibitive at this time. I'm looking at a Savage Arms 10 FCP-K http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPK Its a reasonable price, looks fairly cool, and I'm assuming is going to be more accurized than any of my EBR's. This is the scope I'm thinking of matching to it, http://www.primaryarms.com/product.sc?productId=439&categoryId=161 I appreciate any feedback, thoughts, or suggestions. I'm looking to keep a budget of $1500 combined for a rifle + scope.

I have a medium sized Sentry Safe with an electronic lock. I'm very happy with it. They have a very large 59" model that may fit your needs. Just remember you have to get it down into your basement! I believe they are fire resistant, not water... so you may want to consider that. Whatever solution you go with, make sure it is bolted/secured to something immobile. If the bad guys can get the thing down on the floor with the door facing up, they could go to town with demolition crowbars and will eventually get inside. That is unless you opt for something premium like http://www.sturdysafe.com/ .

Taurus PT709 "Slim" 9mm

I live in OB currently. Expect 2-3 months for a PPP. I had to keep calling and nagging the Clerk's office starting 1.5 months in. I was polite and kind about it... Just like they have excuses (fingerprints not back, references not back, detective is on vacation, it's on the ID dept desk for verification, etc). I came up with my own... "It's sitting at the store with a big down payment on it" , "I'm concerned as to why this is taking so long, is there something wrong", "i have a big competition coming up, and I need to practice with the new pistol", etc. They don't really care, but it gives you an excuse to keep calling. I didn't get any movement until I started calling every 2 days, boiling up to asking to come in to speak with the chief over my concerns. You can't pull that card until 2 months in... as they know that's just way past the limit on how long it should really take.

Yea, seems these laws were meant to deal with specific problems during a specific time period I'm guessing here but ... Tommy Gun in the violin case / sawed off BARs gangster style in the 20's-30's (National Firearms Act 1934), street gang violence in the 50's-60's with switch blades (Switch Blade Act of 1958). They're long in the tooth if you ask me. Kinda like those silly laws still on the books that everyone likes to make fun of... things like you could be sentenced to hanging for steeling a horse, etc. They were grasping at straws for anything they could use to lock the bad guys up without proper evidence of their real crimes... "Oh we caught you with a sawed off shotgun, bingo ... 10 years" No need to go wasting time now looking for evidence of racketeering, extortion, murder, etc. Needless to say I doubt it really worked out the way they thought it would. Gangsters just used 16" barrels... street gangs switched to fixed blades.. lol Crooks know better. Had a friend in the DEA down in Miami. He used to bust some big time drug related crooks. He mentioned to me they would bust in , armed to the teeth... only to find not a single weapon on the bad guy's premises. You see, the crooks can be clever... they know they aren't going to win a gunfight with the Feds, SWAT, PD, Vice, etc; so why bother keeping guns around with all the weapons charges that can be tacked onto all the other charges (drugs, etc). Typically if a gun was involved in committing a felony, instant multi-years sentence on top of anything else they are indicted for. No plea bargain, no early parole for it ... So there you go.. I wish they would stop with the silly laws that make law-abiding citizens instant felons based on cosmetics of a firearm. Keep on stiffening the penalties if someone uses a gun in the commission of a crime. Those are the laws that work to stop gun crime!

So technically yes you are correct, there are provisions in the laws to own a MG. Practically, heck no. It amounts to a complete ban. You must qualify for a permit to carry a handgun (near impossible in the state alone), and the Superior Court of NJ (where you submit your MG permit to) has to decide that "the public saftey and welfare so requires" you to own a MG. So you have to pass two discretionary tests.... So "near impossible" + "astronomically near impossible" = you do the math :

Yup, no NFA SBRs,SBSs, Silencers, MGs, or DDs allowed in NJ, no matter if you have the federal tax stamp or not. Pretty idiotic... getting 10 years for putting a stock on your pistol. At least at the federal level, they only have a few cosmetic laws (SBR, SBS), as opposed to the EBR list in NJ. I'm at a loss as to what crimes SBR rule is preventing. I suppose it was enacted back in the day when the "gangsters" were hiding tommy guns in violin cases...

No names here, just model numbers, or abbreviations of.

I use an 80mm Konus scope. Its fantastic. I've learned about it from a few guys at my range. I've been told by more than a few people that the quality rates along with scopes twice its price. http://www.amazon.com/Konus-7120-20x-60x80mm-Spotting-Tripod/dp/B001DX7Q8W Bit more pricey than 60mm scopes, but if you need to reach out 150+ yards, it will do it happily. I went from a 60mm Bushnell scope to the 80mm Konus. Wow, night and day difference. That being said, there are other 80mm lens scopes out there for less, such as http://www.amazon.com/Celestron-52250-Ultima-Spotting-Scope/dp/B0002CTZ70/ref=pd_sbs_sg_1 . I don't have any first hand experience with them though.