Dan

Hi all, I'm starting this thread to discuss how people feel about how the choice of HD gun being employed versus potential legal aftermath if that weapon was used in a justifiable shooting. Lets say in a home invasion scenario with an intruder carrying a weapon. You utilized your HD gun to dispatch that intruder, it was all justified. The two scenarios are as stated: A: You employed a .45 ACP 1911 B: You employed a .500 S&W Magnum revolver Now I don't pretend to be a lawyer, but it is my understanding that after these types of scenarios, you may be open to be charged both civilly and criminally even if the shooting was justified. Things like "wrongful death", "excessive force" come to mind. With both of the above scenarios, which one would could add fuel to the fire. Which one would a prosecutor or lawyer be able to work with in trying to portray you in a negative character light. These areas of the law tend to have lots of gray, and it becomes an exercise in which side can convince the jury they are right. Here is an excellent article that I found that touches quite a bit on the topic. The question at hand starts at "Problem Two" in the article. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/choosing-self-defense-guns I know we have had quite a discussion in the Good to Go Thread, sorry for that bit of threadjacking there Ray Ray! Starting fresh here.

Sorry if you though I was nit picking Ray Ray, was just trying to understand your choice in weapon. Personally I'd choose a .410 anything if over-penatration, i.e. drywall etc was a concern. Was looking to start a conversation. Never said I hate the judge or anything like that. I'm simply giving my opinion when choosing a handgun round for home defense, and the logic that I go through. I recently went to a Utah CCW class over at Gun For Hire. Anthony gave us a little lecture at the end of the class on using handguns for defense, he gave the same argument backing the logic i have been using. That you typically want to choose something that a prosecutor wouldn't have a foot to stand on in trying to portray you as "dirty harry". He also mentioned using a type of weapon + cartridge that is in common use by LE. He even told us about a particular case in which a prosecutor went after someone in a justifiable shooting due to the type of handgun that was used. I wish i wrote down the details... Sure a 12gauge shotgun slug/buckshot is premier for home defense, and at close range trumps any handgun. The thing is again, what would a prosecutor/jury think. They are standard weapons, used by police, hunters, and for self defense. A 12 gauge isn't something "exotic" the prosecutor could sink their teeth into. I'm not trying to win sides, just giving my opinion. Take it for what it is. To some it may make sense, and others will think I'm completely wrong, its all good.

I completely agree with your logic Vlad; however unfortunately, I do apply jersey logic in my thinking because it is where I live. I put myself into the shoes of an anti-2A gun hating prosecutor, and when they decide to go for an indictment, you then have to put yourself into the shoes of a grand jurist, made up of the majority of NJ citizens that don't know a thing about guns, care about 2A, or are familiar with NJ firearm and self defense laws. Easily mold-able by the prosecutor. Its all about what the prosecutor can steer the jury to think. You'll make their case easier if they can portray you as a "blood thirsty gun nut dying to shoot someone for any reason". What plays into their twisted ruse better? Standard cartridge in use by LE all over the country fired from a standard type of pistol. Or an extremely high power dirty-harry make my day type of revolver that can blast holes through engine blocks and other nonsense....

edited to remove auto smilies That would be interesting to review. Here's my logic regardless of the statistics. In self defense, typically you are OK to use the appropriate amount of force to defend yourself under the circumstances. Lets say in an home invasion situation, and lethal force is appropriate (protect you and the familiy). Now you use your .454 casull and blast a chunk out of the bad guy. Were you legit in using deadly force? Sure. Can the prosecutor still file charges against you for using excessive force? Sure can. Is it easier to defend yourself (or hopefully curtail the prosecutor from charging you) if a: you use a 9mm pistol similar of the type use by many LE agencies (they wont demonize the tools they use), or B: a .454 Casull, one of the most powerful handgun cartridges around, not in use by any LE agency that I know of.

Yup, its all part of the character building the prosecutor will play. They will try to portray you in a negative light to try to try to prove that you used excessive force in your defense.

Look how much of a battle it has been to cut a few billion off the budget. IMO its the right way to do it, a little at a time. I was reading an article on Boliva, they decided one day they didn't want to subsidize gasoline , and overnight the price of gas rose 70-80%. Those kinds of shocks to the system are bad news.

I stand corrected, read legalese further and it is true that NJ residents can buy out of state, but only from federally licensed dealers. No private sales. Although as for FFL03, I understand that you cannot have C&R firearms shipped directly to you within NJ. Is that not correct?

That would be pretty interesting, although, .454 Casull would carry some legal complications if ever used in a defensive situation. Also way too much penetration in a suburbian setting, with most factory loads anyway. The court would probably try to play the "he's a blood thirsty gun nut, just waiting to shoot someone" card due to the cartridge's power and typical use in hunting scenarios. It could work if that was your only gun you had, and you are a hunter, and were pressed into use it to defend yourself. Way to minimize that risk is to use calibers and similar types of weapons LE uses for your home defense firearms.

Off topic, but found this awesomeness had to share:

I'm taking it you were really going for over-penetration protection with this choice of weapon? Personally, I would clean it, lube it with whatever slime you prefer, and fire a quantity of ammo at least whatever you realistically and afford and feel comfortable with. Its important to check both SA and DA modes with the exact brand/make of ammo that you plan to use as a defensive round. I have a Taurus Tracker .357 that will not fire off S&B .357 mag factory ammo in DA. Seems the primers are very hard, and DA mode the hammer doesn't drop hard enough. Since it may be living in a lock box in a bedroom or equivalent for what may be long periods, I'd give it a coating of an anti-corrosion product like Eezox or similar. Wet lube critical friction areas slightly. Don't overlube since you will be keeping it loaded, you want to avoid lube from penetrating and souring the ammo. Have fun!

You can do that without a C&R FFL with a private in or out of state purchase of long guns, provided the seller and buyer both fill out a NJ Certificate of Eligibility, and the NJ buyer has a NJ FID. NICS checks (and fees) are only done when purchasing from a licensed dealer. I've looked into this years ago, from what I've researched, I've found zero benefit of having a C&R living in NJ. The whole reason people usually want it is to have C&R listed firearms mailed directly to their house, bypassing needing to go through a dealer. NJ laws basically nullify this benefit. So in NJ, a C&R is only good if you want the BATF to have the ability to perform yearly inspections on your collections, and try to ding you for any slight technicalities or errors in your record keeping. There is also the possibility the information is shared with NJSP, although this appears to be hearsay at this point. Is all that worth it to maybe, just maybe avoid having to pay NICS fees once in awhile if you purchase a C&R firearm from a licensed FFL out of state dealer (in person, so there's gas/toll money involved). I would suspect many dealers would may still demand a NICS check just to cover their arse.

edited for some stuff i forgot.. No problem. Its good to know. Just keep in mind, NJ ignores Federal laws and continues to keep pellet/BB guns defined as firearms. They are even classified as "assault weapons" in some cases. They are treated as "shotguns" because they do not fire fixed ammunition, so any semi-auto pellet/bb gun holding more than 6 bb's or pellets is an assault weapon under NJ definition. If the barrel is under 18" it is also considered a sawed off shotgun. So just possessing a 16" barrel pellet rifle that holds 7 pellets.. will get you 15 years in the slammer. The federal law should step in and save you in the end, but who wants to test that and deal with the headache. I got this info from Nappen's book (excellent to own if you have firearms and live in NJ)

Here's a linky : http://www.beemans.net/airguns_protected_from_state_reg.htm Nappen apparently uses this to defend "victims" in NJ being prosecuted for illegal possession of a firearm when the "firearm" in question is a BB gun.

Safest way to go with the least amount of trouble.. Have mom arrange with a NJ FFL to have them ship to a NYS FFL with whom you also made arrangements with. Mom would take them in person to the NJ FFL and hand them over for shipping. If she gives them to you to take there, that is an illegal transfer of a handgun. Use this link to find an FFL in NJ and NY. http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx Check out Mel over at Defensive Security, he's reasonable and easy to deal with.

As what other posters said, its a bad idea to get a C&R in NJ. Period.

I'd tread cautiously. I would definately look into it, but really do the homework. Perhaps a term contract for employment with reasonable conditions (like you have to show up for work,etc) would be in order. There's gotta be a reason the other company is paying 50% more... it could be your friend is the best at what he does, and they are recruiting him hardcore for their long term strategy, in that case excellent. Or it could be something more sinister, like they need a good guy at whatever he does for some big project/contract/etc, then once that's over with the "its been great having you with the company, but times have changed, etc...go find a new job" speech comes out. One thing I have learned is to not burn bridges. Its a small world out there, and if you get known as a job-jumper or disloyal, your hire-ability will really suffer when the time comes you really need a job.

What do you guys think of my logic here? I'm looking at this statement in our laws: "(a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and" I'm pretty sure 5.56Nato was not designed primarily for handguns. Its a rifle cartridge that was adopted for use in frankenpistols. I would say that it is an "unintended usage" of the cartridge. The law appears to be going after "primarily designed for" pistol ammunition like 9mm, .357 mag, .38 spec, .44mag, .40, etc. That being said, I wouldn't want to be the test case. Also, the BATF has gone on record stating that M855 is not classified as AP. Other items to note is that the law specifies "whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than .025 of an inch, is of tungsten carbide or hard bronze or is made of other material, which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater". In the M855's case, the jacket is copper OK there, and the "steel penetrator" is just a small portion of the lead core, not the entire core. The law does not specify "whose core contains", it is implying the entire core. So OK there also.

Politicians say anything to get elected. Then, once elected, do anything they can get away with... of course always with the eye on the ball of wanting to be re-elected. If pro-2A rights legislation makes past both houses to his desk, he can just claim it is what the constituents and legislature wants (or were forced to do so via SCOTUS decision!), and will not get in the way of it... all without denouncing his prior words while originally campaigning for office. Win-win for him.

Definitely an uphill battle. A lot of people (including federal and state legislatures) are going to have to get used to the fact that the Supreme Court has decided that 2A rights are extended to the states, and is a right of the people. Just like states can't restrict due process or freedom of speech. What they can do is slightly tweak within reason our exercise of our rights, such as processes, forms, administration, etc (like a permit to hold a rally in a park or public place with over so many people, and other "shall issue" types of things etc. It's going to take a lot of effort to "reset" existing laws in states that do not already fall in line with the spirit of 2A rights, and that's what SAF and the various state pro-2A rights associations are doing right now. Sooner or later all the states will be on par without crossing the line of an outright denial of 2A rights, with a federal law or not. That is unless SCOTUS wants to make hypocrite out of itself....

I'm not sure how he can get the high capacity magazine charge overturned, there are zero exceptions he can apply. If he can have a federal court rule that NJ magazine capacity restriction laws are unconstitutional and illegal, there is still the problem that he was already convicted while the law was in place. I'm not sure how that would work. Would NJ have to give new trials to all those folks who have been convicted in the past for high capacity magazines? He may be able to get the hollow point ammo overturned if he can successfully argue that he was transporting them from place of purchase in Colorado to his home in NJ.

I like to see legislation like this, paves the way for a civilian CCW version similar to Thune.

"State of Emergency" is a broadly used condition, could be blizzards, earthquakes, hurricanes, civil unrest, insurgency, etc. They just chose to put constitutional rights on hold during the general call of State of Emergency without going into specifics into what particular kind or reason the SOE was called for. I know I've heard of a few states specifying that gun confiscations will not happen during SOE's, haven't heard anything regarding limiting CCW's or Carry rights.

So true, the cleaning/lube part being of various religious followings of sorts. I was tempted to explain mine, but I knew it could start an epic battle of the lubes discussion!

ARMS #71L-F/R BUIS set for my STG from my wife. Perfect fit as it allows cowitness through the Eotech. She had help picking it out. To myself, just ordered... a Remmy 700 Milspec 5R .308 and Millett LRS scope. Now the waiting game, which it not a very fun game to play...

I do the same thing. My ritual is to use something like Gun Scrubber to remove anything the factory put on or was leftover from the machining process. Then I follow through with laying down my foundation of dry and wet lubricants and protectants. Let me know if you are interested in what that process is.