NJCK

Dismissal because of legal, responsible ownership of firearms is grounds for one hell of a lawsuit! I'd take that fight to fund a comfortable retirement! Actually, it's a relatively innocuous letter, just confirming employment. Doesn't give any indication why on the form - my HR rep showed it to me the first time she got one because she felt it was a rather low-level request. With what we do, background checks are a normal course of business for our HR department, and many of us have levels of governmental clearance. I've also been working for the same international firm for 16 years, and transferred to one of our New Jersey offices several years ago for advancement and project opportunities. It's no secret in my company that I am a firearms enthusiast. I have even taught firearms safety and handling to many of my co-workers' children in the Scouts. We have even arranged for company shoots, which have included the president of our US operations, to raise money for the orphan trust we run. So I can say confidently that you do not find anti-gun drummers at every turn here.

Only time I buy in this state is from Eric (Ammoman.com). He's on the way to my office, and gives a nice discount to cash and carry and repeat customers. Only buy when he's got something I like to shoot. Otherwise, I've been using the online sellers in bulk.

When I got my initial NJ FPID, my Boro had it's own PD and the detective conducted telephone interviews of my references. Now that my Boro lost it's own PD and is combined with their neighboring Boro, they send out written questionaires to references and employer. I have been a reference for friends, and the process has varied for them too. For an application submitted through Troop A of the NJSP, I was telephone interviewed. For others where it's been local PDs, it's been either. I have to say the ones that require me to have my response notarized before returning on my postage are a bit much!

Thanks! Gerry and all, I dealt directly with the Det. Sgts. from the Firearms Investigation Unit. They were great with everything since my first call, and even promptly returned voicemails left for them. Honestly, the most difficult person to deal with throughout all of this has been the clerk!

This morning I met with the Chief, the clerk, and had copies of the NJ code and the March 2010 letter with me. I took the diplomatic approach in seeking that we all get on the same page and clear the air because I am confused (versus telling them they are). I told them how I understand the regulations to be, and that I researched a collector's exemption at great length, including speaking with two of the Det. Sgts. at the NJSP Firearms Unit, to be sure I could make the deal within the regulations. I also openly offered that time is now a factor due to the seller's situation, and the point of such an exemption is to allow fast action upon a collector's opportunity. The Chief indicated that the State has provided much mis-direction and re-direction to them regarding handgun purchases, and shared his own personal viewpoint, which was actually good to hear. He asked to see my copy of the March 30th letter, but questioned it as it was unsigned. He asked the clerk to look for the official one, and surprise, she couldn't locate it in department files. Fortunately, the Chief had no problem calling the NJSP with me, and better yet, one of the Det. Sgts. I had previously talked to answered the call. We had a very good conversation I think, and it was made clear, with the clerk keeping notes, that I can have as many permits as I wish to pay for, even if I cannot use them, with ONE filing of an ST-033. Moreover, the Det. Sgt. found that my SP-015/15A/16/16A were received on Tuesday, after the clerk told me they wouldn't be sent until my background information came back, which I know it hasn't as one reference is out of town, and I pay the $18, which I haven't. So, it is obvious to me that someone figured out they were in error after my call with the clerk on the 18th in order to get my paperwork to W. Trenton by the 22nd! In the end, I walked out of the station with 5 purchase permits in-hand off my last “regular” ST-033. We also agreed I’d pay nothing for the additional background for the exemption since it was already pulled and my references are going to say the same thing. The Chief and Det. Sgt. Were sympathetic over the waste time, but I don’t know if that will amount to a hill of beans, but it should be fine with the NJSP already working on the investigation for potential approval.

I'll sum it up quickly as it was probably missed between various posts. When local PDs were consolidated the other year, I lost my actual local Boro PD, and came part of a combined PD of two Boros. My former local PD understood and followed everything properly - meaning I could file ONE ST-033 and get as many permits as I wanted to pay for with the ONE filing. I would get 6 at a time to be realistic of the use period with extension. Fast forward to the new combined PD under another Chief, and they have only allowed ONE permit per EACH ST-033 filed. This is in clear violation of the law, I know. However, I've lived within it because the way they have run it, just like clock-work, I have been able to pick up my next permit 30 days after the last one issued by just filling out a new ST-033 right there at the station. Their procedure has been to re-check background every 6 months. Not too inconvenient to me other than I have to take off time from work to pick up my permit each month to make the clerk's hours. I just had my 6-month re-check, and I knew I was going for this collection, and I wanted to file for all of the permits needed at that time, but the local PD won't do this, and they've got the entire process jumbled at my burden. However, I think this is resolved (next post in thread).

Just a quick clarification on my dilemma before heading out to visit family this weekend... Had I given more background, it would probably be clearer as to why I am so jammed up by my local PD, but I was still too steamed when originally posting to roll out the nuisances. I have given the seller a deposit to hold it, never the problem there. This is a collector I have known for many years, and he is also an FFL, so he was always willing to work with me. The issue is that he has now sold his home (very quickly actually), closing May 16, and he and his wife will be moving to enjoy their retirement in Italy! So, the collection has to be dealt with by then. I already have a trusted NJ-FFL involved, needed to for the SP-016, but the collection is more than he is comfortable with holding, especially if the exemption were to be denied and it has to be pieced one-at-a-time, otherwise I would have already paid in full and had it in a NJ safe. I spoke with the seller this morning, and he's going to see if there is another FFL out on his end that may be interested in help to facilitate by holding. Gerry, you are reading my mind as the first approach toward the issue.

Looking for the sage advice. In other words, what has worked for other forum members in situations similar because it happens all over this state based on reports here and on other firearms forums. Of course I will speak to the Chief upon his return, but there is more than one way to fight a battle, and sometimes diplomacy can be the better route over accusation. No-one likes to be called dumb, even if they are, and who likes to be scolded? The local PD is obviously uniformed, even though they think otherwise. I will meet with the Chief, with the March 30, 2010 letter in-hand, and if he has a different interpretation, I'll suggest we contact the State Police together. However, unless there is a Trooper here that can point to the contrary, the State Police have general authority, and where local police exist, the local police have specific authority. So Troopers don't necessarily overrule or preside over local PD as I understand how NJ has established the State Police. However, the crux of my specific matter will not be changed. By the time I meet the Chief, 3 weeks will have passed and I may not see the State Police's approval of the exemption in time for the seller even though all my references, verifications, and SBI will be back by the time he is. That's the rub.

In the years living in the State, one thing is abundantly clear to me. NJ government knows how to muddy waters and tie anything up for unbelieveable periods at a cost of the taxpayers money! I have to deal with the NJ governmental agencies on nearly a daily basis, and not a single one of them could be described as having educated, logical, or even efficient people! It also really bothers me knowing that my taxes, and my fellow gun owners' taxes, in part, are being used for NJ's defense of this - the very regulations we feel ridiculous as legitimate gun owners complying and bending to every demand placed upon us so that we can own our firearms! I came from a State where my handgun purchases were completed within 2 hours, as many as I liked; had sensible CCW; and, had castle doctrine! NJ would rather me jump from a second story window than defend myself and my loved ones with a firearm, for which I am very adept at using!

So, my local PD illegally enforces one-handgun-per-month by only allowing me to apply for 1 permit every 30 days. Absolutely refuses to issue more than one at a time even though I know the law and pointed out the March 30, 2010 letter the State Police gave me... Doesn't matter. OK fine, I can't complain too much because on that 30th day I can walk in and get my permit, and have learned just to have my latest acquisition lined by for transfer, but it is a burden because the clerk's hours are limited and I must take a part of a workday off to go for each permit. They also don't re-run backgrounds until 6 months has passed, so it's not financially out of hand. Now here's where I am hacked off. I am in the process of acquiring a collection and talked at length to the State Police to understand the details, procedures, and my right - this is how I got the March 30, 2010 letter to begin with, asked here, and so-on for applying for a collector's exemption. I've never done such a group buy in this State of ridiculous gun control laws so needed to educate myself... So I fill out my SP-015 and then line up everything needed for the SP-016 (complicated because seller is out of State, but handled). Have all my paperwork in order, show up to the station, submit it with a ST-033 for the number of permits and the clerk loses her mind because this is out of whatever tiny niche she can process and tells me I can't have more than one handgun a month. Not so, fine, bring on the Chief. He sorta was aware of the process, but has never done one before. I tell him there is a letter that was sent to him by the State Police that outlines it, and here are the facts from it as further described by the Det. Sgt. from the State Police who oversees these. I show him that all my paperwork is in order, and thought we were good to go. My local PD just finished my 6 month background re-check in February, so all they really needed to do is send my SP-015 and -016 up to West Trenton and then give me the permits when/if the State Police approves the exemption. Fine, good, right? NOT! Keep in mind, the whole point of such an exemption is to accomodate an opportunity that won't exist with one-handgun-per-month... So, this was handed in 2.5 weeks ago, and today I get a call from one of my oldest friends asking why he's being asked to fill out the same form again from my local PD... Puzzled, I give HR a call, and sure enough, they got another employment verification in today's mail. Ring up reference two, ditto! What the??? Give a call to the local PD clerk and ask for the reason why my information is being re-checked. She answered because "you submitted that exemption, and it says the exemptions are handled outside of the one-handgun-per-month." Ok, that's true, but why another background because you (local PD) just did this 1 month ago. I ask did you send my SP-015 and -016 to West Trenton? She answered no, we need your background information back first and for you to come in with a money order for $18 for the State check! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? I ask if she understands that the collector's exemption is supposed to be a rapid vehicle to accomodate a collector's opportunity? You just finished my background, and legally I am permitted to request as many permits as I wish and pay for and they are to be issued! I get the "we'll that's not what the Chief does and we'll move as soon as your background information is back and you pay." I ask for the Chief, and told he is on vacation till next Wednesday! The State Police already told me it's 30-45 days for them to turn it around, if my local PD is not going to submit until my background is re-re-checked, that's going to make it about 30 more days on top of it for 60-75 days from my submission! Guess what, there is no way the seller will wait this long! I am fit to be tied. I want my local PD to be educated about the proper handling and enforcement of the gun regulations, but I also fear retribution if I make the waves by having the State Police make a call, which they were all about doing. I live in a tiny boro, and can see it now - tickets for 1 mph over, ticket because my parking light is blown out, I crossed the street a little sideways, whatever. This is going to turn out to be a gigantic waste of my time and money putting this deal together because my local PD cannot be bothered to understand and act within the law here. Any sage advice??? Besides the obvious of moving out of New Jersey - that will likely happen, but not for a bit.

Exeter is making SP2022s again - all-American-made frame, barrel and slide now and no-more import. 9mm & .40S&W standard runs, occassional .357 Sig runs for LEOs. The all-American SP2022s and some German frame/American uppers have had some occassional feeding and extraction issues. The all-German, triple-serial SP2022s are the choice when you find them. I have an early all-German, triple-serial, proofed 9mm, internal extractor, loaded chamber indicator, variant that is absolutely one of the best shooting Sigs, in terms of trigger feel and accuracy, out of the box that I have ever fired! I also have a late 2010 all-American .357 Sig with the external extractor (Virginia LEO overrun) variant with a factory .40S&W drop-in barrel that also performs flawlessly. For those of you looking, keep in mind more than a dozen variants of SP2022s (beyond chambered caliber) have been identified.

Pizza Bob, you are not at all nit-picky, but absolutely accurate! Apparantly, I had a lapse in my Smith sense! It it probably obvious now which of those Smiths don't come out too often...

Don't know where you are located in our State, but I have several J-frames - a 3" 65-5 (.357), 1.5" 640 (.38Spl), and a 3" 60-15(.357) - if you wanted to shoot them. The 60-15 actually isn't bad at all with full loads of .357 and tame with .38 Spl +P. The 640 is very easy to carry and accuracy is just fine for up-close self-defense. I do not personally like Airweights, and feel the weight is needed in this Smith frame to help reduce the abuse and make sure you can be reliably effective if needed. I'd never shoot a day at the range with any of these, but you bet I have trained with each (I prefer revolver concealed). My favorite of the Smiths is the 65-5 as a cross-draw, but it shares time with my 2.25" Ruger SP101 (built like a tank!), for concealed carry.

Talk about a useless dinosaur out of touch with his constituents and reality!

No advertising here. I keep my gun ownership low profile, even when transporting in and out of my house it doesn't happen till the vehicle is in the garage and the door shut. My gun safe is also hidden. If you're seeing one of my guns anywhere besides the range or a hunting bluff, you're probably somewhere you don't belong...

Evan Nappen is good at one thing - selling himself. Look up his legal record, it's not too impressive. Look up his legal briefs, they're not very well written. Best I can find is that he made himself a common name in NJ gun laws because he can send an ominous letter to police chiefs and mayors to get them moving on permits. IMO, this is just not a story to try to find legs on which to stand for NJ gun law reform.

This is why my advice for the OP to seek out the base legal's advice. I am fairly certain that this "grey" was made very black and white by the court with the case I am alluding to. I never had a need to remember enough of the details for names, but the OP's position is pretty much what the case dealt with. The outcome was not anywhere near on the side of the soldier unless some appeal changed it that I didn't hear about. I have a lot of grey hair and lived around this country, and believe me, NJ isn't the only State in the USA that can seem to twist something in the law clear as day to the average Joe. Remember, our courts, in the interpretation of laws, work on precedent. All I am saying OP is that you should seek the advice of those whose JOB it is to understand the law and how it has been interpreted over your own interpretations or those of folks you have no idea what our backgrounds are.

I own a number of Sigs, including a German SP2022 (9mm), four P226s (SA/DA, DAK, Sig SRT conversion, and a Grey Guns work-over), and will be picking up an American SP2022 (.357sig/.40S&W barrel) next week. Out of the box, my German SP2022 is the best Sig production trigger of any Sig I have shot. Because it's a fire control unit (FCU), it's supposed to be incredibly consistent in feel from gun to gun. I have shot 5 SP2022s - German and German-American variants, and I can tell you it does feel identical in these. PM me after next weekend if you want to know if I think the all-American SP2022 feels the same or not. The absolute best trigger on a P226 for me is Bruce's, and it's superior to the SP2022, but this isn't any kind of comparison because I paid $369 for my proofed German SP2022, and have 3x that in the Grey Guns modified P226.

I'm not here to flame, pick on, or anything else. But I encourage you to consult the base legal because they should inform you of what has happened to other soldiers - it has come up before, and I am referring to the instance that happened a few years ago. I know it because I've worked on the base as a government contractor before I even moved here. You're probably getting the runaround on the FPID because of your DL situation. I didn't think there is any exception to requiring anyone living in this state for 60 days, including stationed military. Nonetheless, you will not find a shop who will risk selling to you even if a loophole exists.

I've owned and still own a variety of Sigs, and have to say the absolute most impressive trigger of any of them is my German SP2022, which uses the SA/DA FCU, and came fitted with the standard trigger. It is hands-down the best out-of-the-box trigger on ANY semi I've ever shot and rivals the Sigs I have had trigger work done on.

Well, I have been a shooter for 35 years, RSO for 15 years, and a practicing professional engineer for 21 years. I could give you plenty more reasons why a semi has higher probability of failure. Reliability's major factor - proper maintenance, regardless of handgun. There are also plenty of poor revolver and semi designs alike. While I am not platform bias, I'd put my S&W 66-4 x 3" pre-lock as one of the most reliable and accurate revolvers ever produced. However, I am also very partial to my German SigPro 2022, which I've put around 1900 rounds through flawlessly, and the Sig is probably one of the most simplistic semis. Novices tend to be inexperienced with good maintenance and often make a poor or uninformed choice in their first handgun. As an RSO, I see failure to fire and failure to eject and failure to feed commonly in semis. Sometimes it's limp wristing, but more often it's load and maintenance issues (I've had shooters look at me like deer in headlights when I ask when they changed their mag spring last). I can only recall a handful of revolver failures due to mechanical reasons (recall two of these were wheelies that should never have been shot - one very poorly kept and the other shot loose) the rest all have been due to bad loads and they make for catastrophic failure. Just my thoughts.

Many follow Ayoob's advice to have multiple non-resident permits since the reciprocity changes dynamically, plus you might like to have a backup if you meet up with a Philly LEO who thinks they can confiscate the CCW you present along with whatever handgun you're carrying (they have done this, many times, and good luck ever seeing them again). Note very few States, like Utah for instance, actively pursue WRITTEN reciprocal agreements. Personally I will be happy to have FL be my backup to Utah (plus I have ME and NH where I camp and hunt). I'd go with an AZ before a VA, personally because of the lower cost and better non-resident reciprocity for a backup. What hurts is losing my WV resident because that gave me SC where I spend much time on business and R&R plus many other States.

I originally thought it was just my local PD, but I did in fact go to the NJSP and talked to both the desk Sgt. and Det. Sgt at the local barricks, with my new FL fingerprint card in-hand, and was told no-deal! Yes, I told them it was for an out-of-state background check at the same time the Det. Sgt. was looking at the card and recognized it as the FL CCW by the pre-printed 790.06 on the card. He told me he printed 100s of people for this in the past, but said they were no longer allowed to. I'm in the southern part of the State, so not GFH, but you can probably guess the class down here, especially since I indicated he's retired LEO. I have been told by another helpful forum member that off-duty NJ LEOs doing this can, but if they get permission from their superiors because FL is now verifying the validity via ORI # of the law enforcement agency. The person I spoke with at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services indicated that more than a hundred January 2011 applications were kicked back because of this very issue. Interesting finding too is that I actually was in touch with two people from my class (belong to my range) and learned that one was granted their FL CCW, and the other kicked back for the same reason as me - we were all fingerprinted at the same time, same person! Sounds like FL maybe doing spot checks on application particulars? If others have gotten the NJSP to do this in 2011, can you tell me the barricks so I can refer my classmate if he has no luck with his county sheriff?

Hey Folks! I haven't been around for awhile, and can't seem to get into my original account. Just wanted to post something that may be helpful for others. I'm a transplant to NJ, and my resident CCW permit from back home is expiring in March. Now living here in NJ with the impossibiility of a home-State CCW, I took a Florida/Utah CCW class in January, and have already received my Utah CCW. After cashing my application check fast, and then sitting on my application, Florida kicked it back to me by rejecting my fingerprint card. Mind you, I have Federal clearance and a TWIC plus an NJ FPID plus my former home-State CCW and Utah's so my fingerprints are in the system and have been for decades now. The fingerprints were taken by the retired LEO running the class, and who has been doing the class for years! I called my local PD and they wouldn't do it, and neither would the State Police because of the Sagem Morpho contract! So I called and talked to the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services and was informed in no uncertain terms that Florida is cracking down and will not accept any application with fingerprinting that is not completed by strictly by a law enforcement agency to which an ORI code is included or can be looked up! I explained what I was told by my local police department and the State Police, and quite directly their response was "that's your burden." I even asked could I have my electronic fingerprints transferred (I have the ability to have mine sent to any agency from Sagem Morpho), and was told that they are only setup for Florida residents for any electronic printing (why that is, I don't know). My last chance for a NJ law enforcement agency was to try the county sheriff, and guess what? The sheriff was happy to do it, and at no charge, and had me come over within minutes of our conversation! NJ is just plain tough with anything related to handguns. I feel fortunate that I was able to get my FPID in just 26 days, and my local PD will give me 1 permit every 30 days for handgun purchase - I know that's actually in violation of the NJ regulations to administer it this way, but I'm not ruffling the feathers of a small-town police chief who does, in fact, give me the purchase permits without any more battle than the wait (and I have used 23 purchase permits in my time living here - I just get one each month regardless because I am a collector). I am also thankful to the sheriff who can still see the bigger picture! If anyone runs into fingerprinting issues - DO NOT use a fingerprint service provider for the Florida CCW as they'll 100% for certain reject it now! Try the sheriff if you can't beg the local PD to do it. My best, Rob _____________________________________________ NRA Lifer & Distinguished Expert