High Exposure

Do you want one? For me want usually ends up being need after about a month. Give it time!

If the gun is loaded why are you racking it? Shouldn't you be scanning for targets, calling 911, gathering family members, seeking cover, barricading your door, following your emergency plan, or doing about a million other things instead of dicking around with your primary means of defense and then listening to see if you scared anyone off? So, you hear a bump in the night. You hop out of bed in nothing but your underoos and rack the $hit out of your shotgun, nice and loud so everyone hears. Now what? Seriously, now that you just gave away your position, and told the bad guy what kind of weapon you have, what do you do? Since this IS a GUN forum, I just assumed that you would have your head in the game. Oh, and I ain't your son. It can happen all the time Ray.... All you have to do is be right more often LOL

For most people, I think they are a gimmick on a handgun. I have never been able to shoot a handgun as accurately with a laser as with iron sights, and believe me I tried. I am a gadget guy and wanted so badly to like a laser on my pistol. I tried the CT grips, the Lasermax Guiderod and one that slips onto the rail onn the dustcover. I had some kind of laser on my social gun for 3 years, but I couldn't warm up to the thing. Unfortunately, the bullet doesn't ride the beam when it leaves the barrel. The fundamentals still apply. Shortcutting them by using a laser is false economy. FWIW, I know Lasers do have their place; an IR laser while using NODs for example. Target designation with a visible or IR laser is another good use mentioned above. Handicapped or disabled shooters is another, and there are more. I just think most shooters, myself included, could better spend that $200 on ammo and training and get greater improvement in the shooting for their money. Now, MRDS mounted on a pistol/revolver however, I feel bridges the gap here nicely, and is a much better solution than a visible laser. I am currently working that angle with mixed results so far, but I am getting better. While I am not a fan of lasers on handguns, your scenario is the one place where they can actually be more useful than not. With adequate training (avouding a visible laser ND) and the utilization of proper tactics (cover, concealment, speed, surprise, violence of action) the use of a laser shines (forgive the pun) in the fast moving chaos of ECQB. Thread hijack: Yeager is an @$$ who got in over his head in Iraq. He froze up when caught in an ambush while working for Edinburgh Security and some of his team mates got killed. There is even video of it: He may be 100% in agreement with me, it doesn't matter. I see his name and I tune it out. /hijack Again, relying on anything other than well aimed shots that hit their mark for self defense is silly. I have never seen a laser used on its own deter anyone or de-escalate a use of force incident. The dirt bags in this world know the Use of Force laws better than most cops or civilians. They know when you can and can't shoot and are more than willing to bet their lives on it when confronting good law abiding people. As far as the scary sounfd of racking a shotgun, please. We have been down this road before. For the children, stop. It is useless Hollywood BS that may very well get you killed. Why are you confronting an intruder with an unloaded gun anyway?

Quick thread hijack: Pat and Mike of EAG offer excellent training, and while it is a serious, I always have a lot of fun as well. EAG classes aren't for everyone as they are a big subscriber to there being winners and losers and you will be asked to perform on command regularly throughout the course, hanging it all out there by yourself in front of the entire class. As Pat likes to say, it is NOT a shooting course, it is about fighting with a gun. I am attending another class with EAG (my 2nd Carbine 2 class) at the end of January outside Philly, and am going to bring a group down to another class (my 3rd basic carbine) in the spring down in West Virginia. As a certified training junkie who has been to dozens of classes (Blackwater, Viking Tactics, Black Rock, NJDCJ firearms instructor and rifle instructor, Spartan Group, Northern Red, and many more) I believe that EAG gives me the best value for my $$$. Don't let the "Basic" in the class title fool you, there is much learning to be had. I learned more in my 2 "Basic" classes than in most other courses I have attended, including many Instructor level schools. /hijack

I used a socket from a wrench set to knock a dent out of a mag tube. Found the right size with trial and error. Start with the smallest socket that won't drop through the tube, put some lube on it, and used a rubber mallet to knock it past the dent. Then moved up to the next size and so on.

If you are looking for lightweight and reliable, why not just get the BCM EAG HS Upper? http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-EAG-HS-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-package-p/bcm-uh-eag2-hs.htm Features BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Mod 3 Charging Handle 14.5" Mid Length Gas System Permanently Installed BCM® A2X™ Flash Hider - Optional M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver T-Marked Upper Receivers USGI 5.56mm NATO Chambers Independently Certified Mil-Spec 11595E Barrel Steel Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish on entire barrel Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights Taper Pinned Front Sight Base USGI Government Profile Barrels HPT (High Pressure Test, per Milspec) Barrels MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected, per Milspec) Barrels Bolt machined from Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof) MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Shot Peened Bolt Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO) Chrome Lined Gas Key Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners Key Staked Per Mil-Spec Tool Steel Extractor BCM® Extractor Spring Black Extractor Insert Receiver Machined from Aluminum Forgings 7075-T6 Receiver Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-A-8625F, Type III, Class 2 Then take one of EAGs courses to use your $100 voucher. Full disclosure, I have attended 6 EAG classes and Pat is a friend. As for the stock, whatever floats your boat. I am currently coveting a Sully Stock after trying one out on a friend's rifle. http://www.thedefensiveedge.com/category_s/51.htm If you are staying lightweight than a pinned MOE is light, strong and solid. Good Luck!

From a practical standpoint, bullet stabilization is more a factor of bullet length rather than bullet weight. In relation to twist rate, longer bullets (that are typically heavier than shorter bullets) need a faster twist rate to stabilize correctly. 1:12 (1 complete revolution of the projectile in 12") is a slower twist rate than 1:9 (1 complete revolution of the projectile in 9"), ie. A projectile in a 1:9 barrel will complete a full revolution in less distance than a projectile in a 1:12 barrel.

** Warning: Video at this link shows full shootout resulting in the death of the actor ** Pretty good Video of a customer at a gun store/range in Indiana who decided to shoot it out with the counterman. Watch the body language between the Counter Guy and the Customer. The counter guy was a pretty hard dude. Took one through the lung still managed to finish the fight, care for other employees, assess his threat and call 911 before his wounds got the better of him and he couldn't do any more. News Story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyRKh1hb97A&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyRKh1hb97A&feature=relmfu

I personally like fixed front sight, folding rear BUIS both non-tritium. I use an RDS and while a fixed front sight with a lower 1/3 co-witness is not distracting and quickly becomes a non-issue, the tritium can draw the eye away from the dot. Additionally, I have found that the night sights aren't that useful on a rifle if you are running a white light. I like the fixed front as it is one less thing to do in the event your optic fails.

Nope. In my opinion they are "dead" choices for me. I will never choose one for either role unless the choice is taken from my hands. I also see them declining in the stated roles in general, for law abiding folk and criminal alike. I think in 9 years, I have taken 1 revolver (a .22 H&R) off the street. I have taken over a dozen semi-autos. Just because I stated they are still viable tools does not mean that I don't think there are better options out there for this particular job (protection against 2 legged predators) or that I think that they are on the decline in the roles you are asking about due to the reasons I have attempted to explain above.

Ray, I am not saying that no one should carry a revolver for SD. I am saying that it is becomeing a less prevelant choice for many reasons. among them are capacity, bulk, reload speed, more dificult to shoot. You asked if they are dead for CCW/HD and I think they are on their way out. New shooters don't have the time, money or attention span to really learn to shoot a revolver with that long DA trigger pull. New shooters are being introduced to the life by folks that only know Semi Autos. New shooters will choose what they know when the decide what to buy for themselves. If you like to carry a revolver brother, go for it. I will stick to my semi. I am also a LEO. Been on the job for 10 years now and am currently a Patrol supervisor in a Municipal Agency. I have been on a regional SWAT team and a FA Tactics Instructor for 8 years and counting, and I disagree that a 4" .357 is the best do it all handgun made. I learned on a Semi. I carry a Semi everyday, I practice on a Semi regularly. I flat shoot my Glock better than my Model 15 revolver all day long. Why would I think that a 4" .357 is better? Yes, I know small revolvers (J-Frame, LCR, etc..) are still being bought. But, from what I am seeing many are being relegated to BUG status, not primary CCW. Of all of my Cop friends, old and young, I only know 3 that even occasionally carry a revolver as a primary CCW piece. One carries a 686, one a S&W in .45ACP (I dont know the model) the other a Ruger SP101. But, they all also carry a semi as well. I also am seeing a lot of these smaller revolvers being bought as an afterthought. The "Hey, I have a permit left and I dont have a revolver yet. I want one." So it is bought, it goes in the safe and occasionally comes to the range, or it gets stashed in the house as a HD piece. I know that shootng a revolver is not magic. It is the result of practiving the proper fundamentals. When I was in the Police Academy in the 2000's I saw people who had never fired a handgun shoot perfect Qualification scores and take the Firearms award with a Semi (A Beretta 92 at that). The Fundamentals executed properly, whether with a Semi or Wheelgun, will carry you through. (And for those reading this that never had to qualify, your quaification score has absolutly nothing to do with real world use of a firearm. It is merely a test of basic marksmanship and weapons handling that has very little to do with fighting with a firearm) Oh, and I agree that it isnt the trigger weight that makes a revolver harder to master than a semi, it is the length of the trigger pull. I don't know anyone that can shoot a DA gun more accurately or faster than a SA gun given equal amount of time on both systems. I wouldn't say I am way off. In fact, I would say that my history is pretty right on. I said the reason for the second gun was the slow reload from the dump pouch. I understand that carrying a semi as a backup was not that wide spread, but I also understand that it did hapen. I didn't go into specs for NYPD Authorized service weapon as that had no bearing what so ever on the topc of the NY Reload. I also know, and thus is the real point to be made here, that as the semi autos came to be authorized, (my buddy from TARU carried a first gen S&W auto as an authorized duty gun way before the G19 program) the need for the NY Reload diminished greatly. As to being shot first, with that mentality, why carry a gun? I don't plan on being shot first. If I am I don't plan on dying. If I do, I don't plan on doing it without a fight. I understand that it may not work out that way, but I am not going to plan for it. Spray and pray is a waste of ammo, and you will have precious little until the fight is over. Fast misses are worthless and suppressive fire works much better when in a team. I have seen the human body absorb a lot of damage and not quit. I am sure you have as well. I don't want to rely on 5-6 shots to stop one actor, let alone 2 or more. I don't want to have to empty my gun into a badguy to end a threat. When you add in the movement, chaos, adrenelaine etc... of a real critical incident, 5-6 shots may realistically only yield 1 hit (If you keep with the standard 80% degradation from you normal training standard while engaged in a real shooting) Cover, concealment, tactics all important. But even behind cover why reload if you don't have too? I know it is easier to reload a Semi while keeping SA than a revolver. Yes, the scenarios I listed were all one shooter incidents. Situations that could have conceivably been stopped by a single CCW carrier in the right place at the right time. While you may have felt comfortable engaging that single threat with 5-6 rounds, can you honestly say that you would not have felt better with more ammo in the gun? Especially in the moment when you are not 100% sure the perpetrator is acting alone? Other than the ammo related malfunctions I have witnessed or am aware of with a revolver, the others I have seen could not be fixed by pulling the trigger again. Timing issues, damaged trigger/trigger guard (this may happen if you use a model 10 as an impact weapon - anecdotal story with photo evidence from long ago. I did not witness this), broken internals/springs. It happens, and usually at the worst time too. Nothing made by man is infallible. Everything will eventually break. The idea that a quality Revolver that is propery maintained is more reliable than a modern quality Semiauto that is properly maintained is silly. My father was an airdale in Vietnam. He was issued a .38 when on flying duties, for the reasons you disclosed. Now that you mention it, It is interesting that the Military has gotten away from the revolvers and moved onto the semi autos.... but... I digress. The 30-40 threat scenario was based on a stage in a competition I was at with Ray last year. It is not based on reality and no, I would never engage 30-40 targets alone with Tank let alone a pistol. it was meant to provoke thought regarding the need for more than one round to stop a threat, and the fact that you can not predict if the bad guy will drop like he was hit by Mjolnir from one round or soak up 15 pills and keep fighting. As I am sure you know, both have happened before and both will happen again. Yes, I carry a G22 at work with a G27 or PM9 as a BUG and sometimes an LCP as well. Off duty I carry a G35, G22, or G23 with the same BUGs.

I still don't see a pissing match. I see an interesting discussion on an apparently controversial subject. I understand that no one likes being told they have an ugly baby, but people are taking my stance very personally. It isn't personal. It's about sharing info, based on individual experience and frame of reference. Anyway.... This, in my experience, is simply not true for most gun owners out there, and skill at arms is the single most important factor determining the outcome of any fight. You simply can not discount it in deference to "practice" to be had had some later date. TK421 I also don't agree with your categorization of calibers into highly, moderately, and marginally effective ammunition. Given ammo that will penetrate adequately to hit vital areas, (modern .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, .44mag, .45 ACP) high, moderate, and marginal effectiveness is more a function of shot placement than ammo selection. Yes, I left .380 off that list as its penetration issues still make me categorize it as a sub caliber - that's a personal choice on my part and not a universal truth. Finally, in my experience, the often repeated statistic of 3-5 round fired at such close distance is due to a skewed reporting factor: suicides, accidental, and self inflicted gun shots are included in the stats as shootings. These are typically 1 round at 0 feet, and there are a lot more of these shootings than gunfights. Gunfights, while still occurring at close distances are typically way more than 3-5 rounds. That's fine Harry, but honestly, which gun do you shoot better, the G19 or the BG .380? I bet it is the G19 and with just a little effort, you can easily conceal it, and be much better prepared to protect yourself and your loved ones. That's all I am saying.

Sure it does. Would you say a lever action in .45-70 is better than a breech loader in the same caliber when viewed from the perspective of SD? Would you say an AR with a 30 round mag is better than an AR with a 5 round mag for the purposes we are discussing here? Would you rather have a 686 or a 686 + on your hip walking into a potential gunfight? That extra round may matter. Frankly, I am surprised at you Ray. I thought this would be clear to a guy whose position on the shotgun as THE HD weapon of choice was based on more holes = better, since more bullets = more holes = better. Also, that wasn't a scenario, it was a point of reference. It was to show that sometimes equipment does factor into who wins in a fight. Is this better? An Indian with a bow and arrow or an English long bowman against an armored knight - the long bow will win with boring regularity. How about a guy with a pointy rock or a guy with a bazooka against a tank? Do I need to tell you who has a better chance of winning? You need the right tool for the job at hand. Self Defese isn't mean to be fair. Nothing about using a firearm to protect yourself should be fair. In defense of your life, you should leave a smoking hole where your aggressor was standing. It should be quick, dirty, and overwhelmingly decisive. Finally,Ray, what is stopping power? How to you measure it? How much stopping power is plenty? Nope. Apples to apples. None are about facing insurgents in Ramadi or hordes of Reds flowing through the Fulda Gap. Most of these are simple scenarios of a man with a gun, usually a handgun, in a public place, that is actively killing folks and needs to be stopped. Sure the above events are like combat. They all involved a situation where if you were present, you would have been in a fight for your life, hence, combat. I specifically picked the above situations as each each was an event where there was a shooter in a relatively public place. There are plenty more that I am sure you know about or have seen: the Internet cafe shooting in Tampa this summer, the LIRR massacre, the shooting at the Texas McDonalds, VA Tech. Each could have been ended by an armed person with a CCW in the right place, at the right time, with the training, equipment, and mindset to win. Yeah, I am talking about you, or me, or Ray Ray. Anyone who thinks a G19 sized pistol is too heavy or big to carry needs to go to the gym, buy a proper gunbelt and a decent holster. The gun you choose to carry should be comforting, not comfortable. In any event, as far as carrying always being a trade off between capacity, comfort and weight, I offer the following comparison: Glock 19 loaded with 16 rounds of 9mm - 21oz S&W 686 empty (2.5" barrel 6 rounds of .357 capacity) - 35oz The G19 (as an example, not a reccomendation) offers 2 and a half times the capacity, in roughly the same size package at over a pound less weight, loaded. (I know there are lighter revolvers out there but this is the gun that Ray Ray mentioned above as beating all the "Polymer Hero's [sic]" in his post above) Your example of the give and take does not apply when comparing revolvers to semi's. The problem with those statistics on these incidents is you rarely get the other side of the story and a reaon as to why the bad guys didn't fight it out. Who were the badguys? Did they have a real gun, an air soft gun, or a starter pistol? If it was a real gun, was it loaded? In my experience, these quick holdups are often perpetrated with imitation guns or starter pistols, and the actors would have fled if the owner pulled a golf club, a knife, or a gun. I can't imagine pulling a gun in that situation and not shooting? If you are not going to shoot, why skin your piece? Relying on brandishing to deter a genuine badguy is likely to get you shot, or your pistol snatched out of your hands and shoved up your a$$. Posturing like that is no bueno. If you are not going to do anything more than brandish, why have bullets? Or buy an air soft gun and save $500. Unless you have ten more rounds to dump into him in addition to utilizing proper tactics. I can't say you would win, but you would certainly stand a better chance with the extra rounds then without them. Then why carry at all. You can't resign yourself to fate like that. When you decide "Well, I guess it is my time." That is when you stop fighting for your life. To me that idea is abhorrent. No. How do you know what the OP is likely to encounter? What are next weeks lotto numbers? Do you want to bet his life, or your life for that matter, on that? I don't. If I only need 5, great, but if I need six, now what? Good. Oh, and bring a reload

Almost, "Carry the gun you shoot the best" is my position. I am not going to carry a .454 or a S&W .500 because I can't shoot them to save my life. (Pun intended)

A front sight would probably help a bit too... Just sayin'....

Agreed. Was not meant to single you out. Was a reminder for all, me included - Slow the heck down and get good hits on critical parts of the body regardless of the platform.

That's very helpful and backs up your position in the matter perfectly. Excellent contribution to this discussion. I mean really, who could find fault with that logic? Well done djg0770! ETA: This thread was about choosing a CCW. By stating my opinion on selecting a weapon for CCW and subsequently defending my position, I have somehow turned this thread into a pissing contest? Edited because my initial post brought as much to the discussion as djg0770's photo above

I know it's a bit of a downer, but it is thought provoking. I also think the names the author chose are very clever and add a bit to the story

One of the top reasons for malfunctions in a semi auto pistol is a bad magazine. Would suck to turn that nice semi into a single shot breech loader.... I use comptac OWB mag pouches. Low profie and secure. I have a double and a single pouch, so I can carry 1, 2, or 3 mags depending. If you want to carry IWB, a single stack pistol mag shouldn't take up that much room in your waist. You could also carry them on your ankle. I know a few holster makers make ankle rigs for everything from tourniquets to magazines.

I hate to be the guy that quotes himself, but there it is. This is my position. I didn't care if a particular gun is hard or easy to shoot to the person carrying it. I shoot my LCP .380 good enough, for a third gun. I don't shoot it anywhere near as well as I shoot my G22 or G35, or even the PM9 or G27 that I carry as a BUG. Look, I see a lot of shooters. I have yet to meet one that can shoot a Bodyguard/LCP/J Frame sized gun in any caliber whether it is .38, .357, .380, .32, .25 , .22 etc... more accurately and faster than a G23/M&PC/SR9/K frame sized or bigger gun. If you can, then good on you bro. Rock on! When your life or the life of a loved one is on the line, is being able to shoot the gun you are carrying because it is more comfortable to carry "good enough" really good enough?

Coeur d'Alene Idaho October 2012 Oak Creek Wisconsin October 2012 Int 96 corridor Michigan, October 2012 Downey California, October 2012 Old Bridge NJ, August 2012 (I responded to this and was one of the first 5 cops in the door) New York City NY X2, August 2012 Tuscaloosa Alabama, July 2012 Aurora Colorado, July 2012 Seattle Washington, June 2012 Oakland California, April 2012 Beaumont Texas, March 2012 Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, March 2012 Chicago Illonois, November 2011 Fort Hood Texas, November 2009 Salt Lake City Utah, February 2007 South River NJ, December 2000 Google these, then get back to me about 5 shots. Horse hockey. Anything made by man will fail. I have seen revolvers malfunction plenty of times. Glocks/M&Ps/XDs/most striker fired pistols don't have safeties and you can fire and reload them all one handed. Yeah, I do. Did you beat me or....? I agree it's usually the Indian and not the arrow with one caveat - all things must be relatively equal. For example an Indian with an AR will defeat the Indian with the bow and arrow with boring regularity. Also don't compare a game to the real thing. 1 shot may not do it in the real world like it does in the comp. 6 shots may not do it either. Bad guys don't clang and fall over when you hit them while standing still with no cover in the middle of a beautiful day where cotton ball coulds float across an impossibly blue sky next to rivers of chocolate and trees that give beer. All that aside. For the sake of discussion, let's say that every one of those steel targets was a threat. There was what, 30-40 targets per stage. Would you rather have 6 rounds on board or 16? ETA: Oh yeah, Ray, one more thing... Do you know what is faster than a sub 1.5 second revolver reload? 10 more rounds still in the gun

It is true, I am not a fan of the .380 ACP as a self defense cartridge in your primary carry gun. But, I am not starting a .380 vs Anything. I just think that it is silly too limit yourself to a small gun that is hard to shoot in a caliber with a notoriously bad record for stopping fights because it is more "comfortable"

My point is you should be carrying the gun you shoot the best with the most effective ammo you can. You stated the set gun was more "comfortable" to carry. If it is uncomfortable, you are doing something wrong.

Are you gonna bring your sling to protect him? What caliber was the rock in the sling? Pea gravel, basebal sized, a cobble? Sorry, cheap shot. Apologies. I know what you are saying, but you are getting a little silly. You are stating that you are basing your choice of carry peice to protect yourself and the lives of your loved ones on a story written 2000 years ago that may or may not be true. Ummmm... OK. I have protected quite a few from all kinds of Goliaths. Never once did I feel I had too much gun on my hip. I have felt under gunned quite a few times though. More importantly, I like how you repeatedly ignore the reason and logic and respond to the esoteric. Your SD piece should be comforting not comfortable. It is easy to dress around your gun. I am 5'6" and weigh 175. I can make my G22 disappear in shorts in a Tshirt comfortably with the right holster and belt.

It is most definitely not moot. First, I was responding to a remark about a member carrying in PA. Second, while I carry at work, I also carry the same 2 guns concealed off duty. NJ, PA,whatever, carrying is carrying. Third, I agree 100000% about shot placement. But... you need to be able to hit what you are aiming at. The smaller a gun gets, the harder this part of the problem becomes. More importantly, most people forget that shot placement is 3 dimensional. It has to hit a portion of of the body and then penetrate far enough to get to the good parts. The .380 ACP cartridge (especially hollow points) are notorious for not penetrating deep enough to do the damage required to stop an encounter where DPF would be appropriate. Oh, also David had the hand of God assisting him. Didn't realize you were on such good terms with the big guy. Seriously though, really, David and Goliath is your justification for carrying a sub caliber?