High Exposure

You can just say all you want but I personally don't aspire to mediocrity. If shit goes awry, I want to be able to handle it quickly and decisively. I am not saying everyone should carry a Mk19. I am saying that if you are going to carry a weapon for self defense against 2 legged predators, make sure the weapon is up to the task. Why carry at all of you are unsure your roscoe will do the job when called upon?

^^^ THIS THIS THIS THIS ^^^ Everyone needs to remember this. The bad guy gets a vote in when the fight ends. He may not want to stop fighting after your double tap. You may have missed. You may have hit, but not damaged anything important. He may not be impressed by your marksmanship or choice in caliber. He may be dead, but just not know it yet. You just may have the reincarnation of Wild Bill Hickock himself on the pointy end of your gun and he just won't quit. It is a hydraulics problem. Barring a direct hit to the CNS high enough to shut it all down, you are going to need to de-pressurize the system - let air in/let fluid out. The more holes in a critical area the better, as the more critical fluids will leak out faster. Speed and accuracy have a relationship based on distance, available weapon system, and cover. The most important of these being distance. Don't confuse gun games or competition with real life. When it happens for real it is about FIGHTING with a gun, not competing.

You need a quick history lesson on the NY Reload brother. The "New York reload" was named after the practice of dumping one revolver for another gun. The reason was that NYPD only authorized dump pouches for extra ammo for the duty gun. It was faster to drop 1 gun and grab another than reload 6 rounds into the issued revolver. (By the way, often the second gun was a full size semi auto pistol as semis were not authorized as a primary carry gun, but OK as a backup/off duty heater.) The implementation of semi-autos and their reloads being so much faster and easier to train has almost put an end to that practice. Gear up appropriately, put yourself in the timer and see what shakes. Of course this is all for naught of you have 16 round on board to begin with instead of your 5 (or 6, 7, or 8). I can double your load out without even carrying any spare ammo. As far as a reload under stress, if you train for it, you will do it. I have heard plenty of first hand accounts of guys finishing a gunfight with a full mag in their gun from Soldiers, Marines, and Cops. They don't even remember reloading, but when the smoke clears, the gun is plussed up and there are empties on the deck and partials in the dumper/pocket/shirt.

Yeah, I know that any gun is better than no gun. My question is, why make the "any" gun sub standard. Does anyone really shoot a Bodyguard .380 better than a full size .357, 9mm, .40, .45? Why trust a caliber that has documented penetration and underperformance issues to save your life? If a pound and a half is keeping you from carrying a better gun, go to the gym, buy a better holster, and get a proper gun belt. I regularly pull full size guns off of gang members and the like. Why are the good guys carrying nothing but a .380 pocket gun? You should carry the gun that you shoot the best and are still able to conceal. Comforting vs comfort and all that. I carry a G22 or G23 with a G27 or Kahr PM9 as a backup everyday. I don't see the issue...

If you are outside of NJ and can carry anything you want, why in the world would you limit yourself to a pocket gun in .380?

^^^ THIS X10000000000 ^^^ I loathe Yeager with the fire of a million burning suns! And yes they are dead for CCW, except they still have a role as a backup gun. The main reason as I see it is capacity, followed by weight, the amount of practice necessary to become competent with that double action trigger pull, and then reload times. I think another factor is that we are slowly losing our gun culture and new shooters are being introduced to shooting handguns with semi-auto pistols and not Dad or Granddad's revolver. Then, when it is time to buy your own, you go with what you know, unless you are a "I like to be different" type or a firearm "hipster".

Are you friggin kidding me?

Ok. What exactly do you think I am trying to do?

If budget is no concern, and you want an accurised/SPR variant look no further than LaRue. Either their Stealth Uppers on a lower you built yourself or one of their complete rifles, in the 18" barrel range.

If you use an AR type rifle check out the Multitasker tool:

I am unsure about the polymer used in Glock frames, but black is the "natural" state of the polymer used in PMags. According to Rich Fitzpatrick the Polymer King of Magpul, to make other colors, FDE, OD, FG, etc... The addition of a different colored material/dye is added, this can cause weakness and inconsistencies in the final molded product.

^^^ This ^^^ I have found that target focused shooting (what jackdawack was describing) is common in new shooters that are working strictly on speed. It is sloppy and imprecise but fast, as long as the target is directly in front of you, stationary, and close. The instant movement is added by the shooter, the target or both, or multiple targets it all falls apart. Use your sights, start close, slow, and concentrate on your trigger control (both the press and the release). The speed will come, but only after the marksmanship. Jackdawack, You should not rely on lining up the 3 dots for a sight picture. They are there for low light/no light reference only. You should always strive to use the outline of the sights themselves for your sight picture whenever possible.

Excellent! Best of luck with it. And I agree with your take on shotguns. I am competent with mine and it is setup appropriately for my uses. While I would not feel under-armed with it, but it is not my first choice for HD/SD. Ruger9, I am glad you are not worried about it. People should feel secure in their homes. I don't worry about these things either. However, I am prepared, trained, and equipped in the event something does happen. In fact, if you are not expecting anything, why have a HD weapon at all? If you do, why keep it loaded? Hoping for the best in a bad situation is not a strategy. The SOUND of an ARMED homeowner does nothing to someone determined to cause you harm, except make it easier to find you and let them know what you are armed with. Relying on a SOUND to keep you and your family safe is ridiculous. Relying on training, skill, and equipment is appropriate and realistic. Yes, I understand that people have been defending themselves with firearms without WML for quite some time. So what? By your argument then we should then be defending our homes with rocks and pointy sticks by firelight, after all, people have been defending themselves with these weapons longer than the human race has had firearms. Or, how about bronze age spears. Hell, let's just go back to black powder smooth bore muskets. The technology to effectively fight with firearms at night is available, affordable, and makes defending yourself easier. Why wouldn't you use it? Why would you handicap yourself for the cost of $75 in gear, a well thought out setup, and some training? I am not saying we need to be trained to the standard of a SEAL in order to defend yourself or loved ones. I don't think direct action missions wold suit most people in this board, in any case. However, as responsible gun owners we should all be prepared, be trained, and have the right equipment to do the job correctly and stack the odds in our favor as much as possible. Anything less is irresponsible.

The rifles themselves. RRA is a 5000 round hobby-spec gun. After 5k rounds you will start running into problems. BCM is built to exceed the military specification with materials that meet or exceed the TDP. RRA is not.

Vlad G, Good deal. Well thought out and you know your systems limitations. Only question is this: Why not spend another $25 dollars to remove those limitations and have a setup that is optimal for your desired use. What is your life and the lives of those you would be defending in a HD situation worth? Ruger9, If you read my posts above in this thread you would see that I advised to avoid any remote/pressure switches. If you need to adjust your normal firing grip or stance to activate your WML you are doing it wrong and making it harder than it needs to be. The circumstances where you would need to use your weapon in the dark are stressful enough without trying to fight your gear or use equipment that is not intuitive. This action, the turning on and off a WML, is an example of when the "instinctive" part of gunfighting may come in to play with the use of some procedural memory you created in training. This task should be able to be completed easily and without changing your normal grip on the weapon, at the unconscious competence level of accomplishment. As far as plan A is concerned, if you are relying in the sound of your shotgun racking to scare away an intruder you have been watching too many movies. There are plenty of genuine bad guys out there that want what you have, especially in these tough economic times. These people have had guns pointed at them regularly and are not afraid of that sound, in fact in post arrest interviews they have often stated that all it did was let them know where the homeowner/cop/whatever was so they could take appropriate cover and attempt to engage them first. The people that have the balls to invade your home are hard, and typically armed as well. Their only question when coming up against resistance is "Can my violence defeat your violence?" if they think it can, then the fight is on. As to plan B, are you really only planning for 1 shot before your light fails? Let's say you only have 1 initial adversary. You fired once and your light fails. Did you hit? If so did it hurt him? If so did it stop the fight? If so did it stop the fight RIGHT NOW? Are there more? That sound behind you is it your Wife? Your kids? A cop? Another threat? You train to assess in daylight, why wouldn't you be prepared to assess in low light/no light? Ruger9, I hope you never are put in any scenario where you have to use DPF to protect yourself of your loved ones, but if you are and you follow your Plan A and Plan B you are setting yourself up for failure.

If I remember right, it is a sequal to flick called "Double Tap". Similar concept to "Triple Tap"

Hi Alec, You may think its ridiculous to use a 5.56/.223 carbine/rifle for HD but it really isn't. You yourself said that you haven't seen any ballistic data comparing the two. I have, anecdotally, scientifically, and in person. And like I said earlier in the thread, at first glance the results are counter-intuitive at best. You have to know that any round that is appropriate to use in an anti-personnel role (FYI: I do not count birdshot, BB shot, etc... as serious self defense/AP ammo) will penetrate construction materials to some degree. One major factor to consider though, is how much of the original mass of the projectile is retained after passing through the barrier and at what speed are the remnants traveling. That is the key. Cops, a profession with some of the most risk averse bosses out there, carry 5.56/.223 rifles into homes and apartments on a regular basis, and most agencies are moving away from shotguns and issuing 5.56/.223 rifles in their place, ever wonder why? The MP5 and other subguns are no longer being carried by members of Tactical/SWAT teams, and are being replaced with M4s and other 5.56/.223 carbines for many of the same reasons (additionally their inability to penetrate body armor with their pistol caliber rounds is another reason). The shotguns are being relegated to breaching duty. Think about that. Shotguns are being used specifically for their ability to shoot through walls and destroy the framework around doors/hinges/and lock, using specially formulated ammo that is designed to disintegrate upon passing through and defeating its target material. Why the special round you ask? Because traditional shotgun rounds that are initially sufficient to destroy the lock/hinge/frame also remain lethal for a good distance after the round has fully penetrated the wall and continues into the room behind it. In 2009 a Jersey City cop was killed and others wounded when a barricaded gunmen opened fire through the wall of his apartment and shot the SWAT cops stacked in the hallway with 00 and Slugs from a stolen Mossberg shotgun. Some of these rounds penetrated a solid wall and bounced off of a ballistic shield in the hallway outside the apartment door before striking the officer in the face and neck killing him. If you think 00B and Slugs won't penetrate typical housing construction you are wrong. By the way, I mention only 5.56/.223 and specifically not 7.62/.308 because I don't have any data and haven't seen any testing. I am ASSuming that since the 7.62/.308 has both the high speed of a 5.56/.223 combined with the higher weight of a pistol type cartridge that it may not be the best choice for that role, but I don't know so I am not saying either way. Keep your shotguns and revolvers as you HD weapons of choice. You are not under gunned and I would not hesitate to use either if that was what was at hand. I will keep my AR and SA pistols. We will never change each others minds. Just know the limitations of your chosen tools and ammo. I do. Cheers j0n!

Ha! Well played! LOL

I find it amusing that you make statements like this, yet have a storm trooper as your avatar. Just sayin.,,

Brother, that first sentence is truth. The rest of that paragraph.... Well.... Yeah, that first sentence is true anyway

I am assuming this clamp will be used to mount the light at the 6 O'clock position, under the tube, correct? Although, it may work at the 3 & 9 O'clock positions as well. In any case, the same question applies. What is the planned "switchology" for using the light? What is the proposed method to turn the light on and off? Hand position, manipulation, etc... Having a light is good. Having a light that you can use in a manner that enhances the effectiveness of the platform it is mounted to is better.

My pleasure. Post back when you have everything set up and have had time to put it through its paces. I am interested to see your final choices and likes/dislikes about the system.

Duppie, There are no traditional firearms today where it's projectile increases velocity after leaving the barrel. As soon as the expanding gas can escape the barrel it stops pushing the projectile, ergo, the projectile begins to drop to the earth and lose velocity due to gravity, friction and other atmospheric effects. The terminal ballistic effects of a projectile fired from a 5.56/.223 rifle has more to do with its high speed and low weight as compared to pistol caliber carbines or shotguns, who's projectile's are much heavier and travel at a much slower relative speeds. It was explained to me like this: Picture a 5.56/.223 rifle bullet - low weight and high-speed, as a motorcycle traveling 100 miles an hour. For a pistol caliber bullet or shotgun round (shot or slug) picture a Mack truck going 50 miles an hour. If they both hit an identical structure which do you think would be easier to stop. The motorcycle will quickly bleed off all of its remaining energy and come to a stop much sooner than the Mack truck. This rapid and violent transfer of energy from a low weight projectile moving at such a fast speed is what gives the rifle round it's devastating terminal effect while limiting its penetration. ETA: An added bonus is that, like a motorcycle hitting a wall at 100mph, the 5.56/.223 round will break into many smaller pieces, each creating it's own path trough tissue causing more permanent wound cavities. Also, contrary to popular myth, the round does not tumble.

Until I saw it with my own eyes, I was in the same boat as you. I truly believed that the rifle rounds would zip through everything. If someone would have told me the results of the test ahead of time, I would've thought they were a fool. It is most assuredly counter intuitive for the rifle rounds to behave in that manner. If you ever get a chance to attend some ballistic training/seminar you should definitely go. it is eye-opening to say the least.

The formal testing I have seen and the informal testing I have conducted show that in any real defensive caliber .38, 9mm, .40, .45, 12g Slug, 00B, #1 shot, .223/5.56 FMJ, OTM and Soft Nose (no .22 LR or birdshot, for example) a .223/5.56 projectile from a 16" barrel, has the least amount of penetration in typical US house construction materials while still maintaining an appropriate 10"-12" of penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. 12g slugs and pistol calibers in 10"-16" barreled carbines penetrated the most, followed by the 12g shot, then the pistol calibers from handguns. Overall the .223/5.56 outperformed in every category, hands down.