High Exposure

Good deal. I would avoid a strobe function in a WML. A strobe effect can make it difficult to see subtle or slow movement of a targets hands, which may be a precursor to an attack. Additionally the strobe's disorienting effects "point both ways" and can have an effect on you as well as your target. Good luck!

True, but the reason for the pistol on the nightstand is the same as the primary reason for the pistol on the hip of a cop, or a soldier - Self Defense - with the same criteria and demands when the balloon goes up. Anyway, I know I will never change your mind bud, but, I do like the discussion! Personally, I don't understand why anyone would choose a pistol/revolver as a primary SD/HD weapon, if they didn't have to. Any pistol caliber weapon is a poor fight stopper with over penetration issues.

Hogwash and poppycock. I have seen malfunctions with a revolver. It happens. Anything built by man can, and will, fail. As far as powerful cartridges, so what? I have seen people dropped like they were hit with the fist of an angry God from 1 .22LR through the shoulder and folks that lived from a .357mag to the forehead. The bad guy has a vote when the fight os over, as does Murphy. Multiple shots, quickly to a critical area is the way to ensure the desired effect. With more powerful cartridges you are increasing recoil (Hooray Physics) that means longer split times, or rushed/missed shots. I can get 10 rounds in a 6" circle in under 3 seconds at 5 yards with my .40. Can't do that with a big bore revolver. Plus, I would rather have 15 rounds of 9mm and a sub 2 second reload for another 15 than 6 rounds of .44mag and a what?... 5 second reload for another six rounds (don't shoot revolvers very much, so I am guessing what decent reload time is). There is a reason most PDs, militaries, etc. went to semi-auto pistols. You can keep your shotguns. I will grab my AR every time, but since this is a revolver thread, I will leave it at that.

If you need a light to just see your way out of a room use a handheld flashlight and proper search techniques. A dedicated weapon mounted light is for target aquisition and discrimination, not navigation. That being said, if you have a gun that is designated for "social" use, it should have a dedicated weapon mounted light. It is hard enough to manipulate a gun (load, charge, etc...), open doors, secure family members, call 911, etc.. with one hand in the dark, then adding in trying to juggle a handheld flashlight. Plus, I don't know about you, but I shoot much better with 2 hands solidly on the gun like I train to do all the time, not with one hand or some mediocre grip trying to hold the light and the gun together. Leaving the light on presents many more advantages then disadvantages. The big disadvantage, namely - "It will make you a bullet sponge" is often taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Leaving the light on doesn't make you any more of a target than you would already be in daylight. However, it does let you ID and engage targets faster than doing a crazy light on/light off kabuki dance. Personally, once I turn it on, it stays on. Turning it on and off does nothing to maintain stealth, the blink gives your position away just as readily as a constant light, and slows down your ability to acquire and ID targets as threats/unknown/innocents. What about after an engagement? All the talk about "light off and move somewhere else so they can't find you after you shoot" Consider this: You hear the proverbial bump in the night, grap your HD gear and go investigate. You turn your light on, aquire a target, ID a lethal threat, decide to use DPF ( Deadly Physical Force ) in protection of your life and the lives if your family, shoot, turn the light off and move. OK. Move to...where? How much room do you have to move to? Are you moving into a partners line of fire? Tripping over that laundry, the kids toys, your wife's shoes? Now, you shot at the threat, the operative word being AT because 20% hit potential is about the limit for most under stressful conditions such as responding to an intruder in your home in the middle of the night, even at typical interior house distances. Did you hit him? If you turn the light off, how do you know? And if you are not tracking your threat down to the ground, how do you know you hurt him? And if you hurt him, how do you know you killed him? And if you killed him, how do you know you killed him Right Now? How about other threats? You assess in daylight don't you? So why wouldn't you assess at night? There are a lot of ways to do somehing, and most are right, and some less so. Get a handheld and a dedicated weapon mounted light. Then get some good low light/no light training. As far as lights, the Surefire fore-end light is the Cat's Pajamas. A railed fore-end with a light mounted to it is a close second, and slightly cheaper. Avoid lights mounted to the barrel/mag with coiled wire pressure switches pressure like a hooker with an Adam's Apple.

That's silly. I don't think a revolver or a shotgun are terrible choices, I wouldn't feel under-gunned with either - given appropriate ammo/caliber, and I didn't have access to my rifle or pistol. They are just not my first choice, and I am curious as to why Ray thinks they are the "Bee's Knees" for HD.

Ray ray, why do you feel revolvers and shotguns rule the roost for HD?

My wife doesn't care either way. She trusts me to not waste money and knows I will work overtime when I want to make a big purchase. She just wants to know when I am buying something, which is good, because I am not so good at being sneaky...

Ray Ray, Don't forget Rock River & Olympic Arms along with Stag and Bushmaster in your yucky list Mossberg was building barrels for the S&W "Sporter" line. You can tell what your rifle has by calling your sales rep or the company with your serial number. There is also word that the Mossberg barrels have an X on the barrel between the twist rate, as in 1 X 7 vs 1-7 etc. The Mossberg barrels had a hard time grouping and were generally inaccurate. I don't think S&W are using them anymore and has now contracted Thompson Center (a part of S&W I think) to build some of their barrels.

I would take a S&W (as long as it does not have a Mossberg barrel) over Spikes all day long. Of all the AR makers out there that make rifles that don't meet the TDP and/or are less than the Military Specifications, S&W (sans previously mentioned crappy Mossberg barrel) is the only company that I would consider.

A few quick thoughts on lasers in my experience. A visible laser (red or green) is a waste of money for most people. If you want to get faster, take the money you would have spent on the laser and spend it on ammo to attend quality training. I wish someone would have told me that when I first started out... A laser can make a decent backup to an optic if zeroed correctly. They have uses as a force multiplier in certain instances, can have limited use as a less lethal deterrent, and can be used to quickly mark targets for others to engage or suppress. If you have more than one shooter with a laser, it becomes difficult to tell whose dot is whose. A laser is an aiming device, not a light. It should not be used to ID a target or discriminate friend vs foe. In most instances, You will be much better off buying a white light to mount to your weapon than a laser. Now, an IR laser is a necessity if you plan on conducting business in low light/no light with NODs - But that is a whole other ball of wax.

BCM all the way.

Every gun you own for "Social" purposes should have a dedicated white light of appropriate brightness mounted to it. Avoid strobes on weapon lights. It may make it hard to detect subtle movements by your target that would normally be easy to see under constant light that are precursors to an attack. You should also have a handheld light for admin tasks, as a backup in the even your WML dies, and for certain searching techniques. Most importantly you need to attend professional training on Low Light/No Light techniques and practice. I look at it this way: Until I make a positive ID, and you need light to do so, I am willing to destroy whatever I am pointing my firearm at.

Welcome

LOL I live to serve

Pssssst... Ray Ray, Over here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/41646-new-remington-870-tactical/

What is stopping power? How do you measure it?

That photo was not a representation of instinctive shooting. It was an example of an obsolete TTP that used to be the Cat's Pajamas some time ago, and we now know to be less than optimal. Now I must admit that I am confused - You have never been trained in "instinctive shooting" methods? Your position is all based on conjecture after reading a few articles on the practice? Have you ever attended reputable training by been there/done that instructors? Have you ever put any of this into practice under the trained eye of a professional instructor? Instinctive shooting is synonymous with point shooting and is closely related to target focus shooting. I understand what it is and I have been trained by point shooting proponents. My experience with this method leads me, and many of the real deal guys that I know, to this: Point shooting, instinctive fire, etc... Is a gimmick used by some instructors to fleece students of their hard earned money because it is easy to teach quickly and gives a false sense of proficiency to the student. It is useless in any real world application and is very likely to get you killed on the 2 way range. At any distance, other than weapon retention distances - where there isn't enough room between you and your assailant to bring the firearm to eye level, the sights should be used. I am not understanding your defense of the practice by stating that instinctive shooting uses any kind of sight picture.

Brother, You have been far from clear in this to me, but that's ok, makes for a fun discussion As far as being around a long time, that is no excuse for using poor TTPs. For example this has been around for a long time as well: Doesn't mean we still shoot like this. Techniques change. What was once cutting edge, becomes obsolete.

You appeared to be saying "use your sights sometimes and react on instinct based on your muscle memory". Unacceptable and unprofessional in CQB/CQC. If that's not what you are saying please explain.

Unless you are saying "Use the sights properly all the time, regardless of distance. ID all targets, and evaluate all force options before acting, remain aware of your surroundings at all times, and think about every little thing you do before you do it" we are not saying the same thing. Training creates procedural memory for administrative actions (draw/presentation, reload/ammo management, offset adjustment, transitions etc...), it makes new things feel familiar, reduces stress, increases team integrity and cohesion, and builds confidence - it does not allow you to operate on autopilot in high risk scenarios such as CQB/CQC. You may be good at shooting without sights on the square range or the shoothouse, but when you are shooting at meat that may shoot back, you must use your sights to discriminate targets and evaluate the effectiveness of your fire. All tactical problems are unique. In the real world you can't operate as if you are on the range shooting at paper/steel. Your perception of events must meet the reality of your situation. If they do not, you have to adjust your plan. You can not do that "instinctually". Now, there is a relationship between speed and accuracy that depends greatly on distance. And, I agree that the closer you are, the more important speed is (barring a high-percentage shot such as a headshot on a hostage taker) and the less precise your sight picture has to be but, (barring weapon retention/speed rock position) it still has to be there. Always.

Ruger9, We are not saying the same thing at all. Not even close. Words have meaning, the word "instinctual" has a meaning. I know you didn't make it up because I know the concept of "instinctual fire" that you are talking about. There is no instinctive fire, point shooting, etc... In CQB. The only concept that I can think of that you may be accidentally referring to by the wrong name is Unconscious Competence, but that is a completely different, and necessary, part of gun fighting. When engaging a threat in CQB/CQC conditions there is deliberation and precision from 0" all the way to the maximum effective range of your weapon system. There is threat ID, sight alignment, sight picture, decision to fire or not, appropriate post engagement sequence, move, and communicate. Every step takes thought and deliberation. You are right, give a SEAL a rifle with iron sights and he can clear a house. I have done that very thing with them in training, as well as USSOFA/CAG guys, Rangers, Recon Marines, etc... Instinct never comes into play. Training/tactics, mindset, weapon handling and precision marksmanship are the pillars CQB/CQC are built upon. The skill and precision of fighting with a firearm are not built on procedural memory- "muscle memory". It is built on training and experience, coupled with the ability to think quickly and solve problems on the fly. I train often and with reputable trainers. It is black and white to me. I do this stuff, and if a team member ever said to me he was running on "instinct" or didn't use his sights, I am not going into a house with him and the guys I do this with feel the same way. It has nothing to do with skill level, other than the fact that a shooter that practices this method is un-skilled. Competition guys may have a different take on this, and that is fine. They can afford to use "instinctive fire", "point shooting", "FAST fire" or whatever they want to call it. They shoot for money. If they shoot a no shoot target, no big deal, they lose a few points. I can not afford to be sloppy or imprecise. And neither can you if you are shooting in defense of your life or the lives of your family.

Sorry, I just saw this and feel it needs a response. First, you should never be "lining up 3 dots" - I am assuming you are referring to your night sights here. You should always be striving to use the physical outline of your front and rear sights at all times. The dots are reference points to obtain a rough sight alignment in Low light/no light until you use your white light and are able to get a proper sight picture. As a last ditch effort, you may be able to use them to obtain a sight picture, but you better make sure you can ID your target as a legitimate threat first. Up close and personal, you may decide to use a "flash" sight picture. That is a topic for a whole other thread. I personally obtain a proper sight picture and I try to use the first-best sight picture possible for every round I let go, whether in competition, training, or real life. Finally, nothing in CQB/CQC is instinctual. Especially aiming at a threat. Everything you do while in CQB/FISHing is methodical and precise. Your weapon manipulations- reloads, clearing malfunctions, adjusting for offset, etc... may be at the unconscious competent level but you are never running on autopilot in your movements, target aquisition, selection or identification, your aiming, or your decision to engage a threat.

Local PD may not print for anything other than an arrest. You will probably have to go to Morphotrak. I think the nearest one to East Brunswick is in South Plainfield. You may need a form from the PD authorizing you for the prints. Contact Morphotrak for more info. http://www.morphotrak.com/index.asp

A friend of mine owns over 50 gas stations in NJ. He normally gets 70 fuel deliveries daily. He told me yesterday that even pulling every string he has, he is fighting to get 3 loads daily. It is absolutely not just panic.

Right on. Glad you had a white light too. A lot of people think that because they are called "night sights" that that is all they need in the dark. If you find the night sights are too bright, a take a black sharpie and color over the rear dots. It makes a big difference distinguishing the front from the rear sights and make it easier to see past the glow of the rear tritium vials. I have found this makes a huge difference in speed and accuracy, especially with fresh sights. Not knocking the Kahr in the pocket holster, I often carry my PM9 in a DeSantis Nemisis myself (as a backup to the gun on my hip). It is a very capable method of carry. Just letting you know that if you are new to carrying a gun for long periods of time, It gets more comfortable and less stressful. Glad you made out alright!