maintenanceguy

I've been building a website to do some thinking on paper - or on monitor. One of the features is exactly this - it can do this tracking for us. Someone visits the site, learns about the project, and then registers to apply with the group on a certain date. As they progress through qualifying, getting their letter of need, filing the application, getting a court date, etc they come back to the site and check off milestones. We'd have a database of who was where in the process. In fact, I've got it up and running in the sandbox and it seems to be working.

I'd like to hear what an attorney has to say about the process of getting a case to court and what's required to have standing to sue. But if one attorney says "it won't work", that might not be enough to discourage me. Every single person who forced a state to become shall issue did something that couldn't be done. And if it takes big money to get this done, I'm not worried. Gun rights money seems to be flowing freely these days - a lot of people are p'd off and willing to throw money at something successful. Once we have a significant number of people who all show up on the same day (or same week) and flaunt civil disobedience, we'll get attention and, if we do it right, funding. The NRA, SAF, and probably others fund projects that are already underway. Private donors like the underdog who's standing up to tyranny. We need to take a risk and do something or there's nothing to donate toward except an idea. .

We think alike. I'll PM you.

I had suggested March 28th - just to pick something and get us started. I know everyone who said "I'll be there" was basing it on that date. But the specific date doesn't really matter to me. I think the 22nd is too soon for everyone to shift plans. The next weekend gives people time to plan. I'll let the rest of the group decide what day. I also like the schoolhouse. Let's make it final if it's available.

just rolls off the tongue.

I have a fantasy. In my fantasy 300 applicants all apply at the same time. NJ realizes that a court challenge is coming and to prevent it, they decide to approve all 300. They figure that we'll have permits for 2 years and they can then deny us when our permits expire two years later. At that point, we will have forgotten about this silly idea. But when they approve all 300, another 10,000 sees that NJ is approving permits and they apply and NJ is screwed.

We know that NJ issues between 600 and 800 permits every year. These numbers were part of the AG's supplimental brief in Drake v. Filko. From the same document, we also know that every year, NJ approves somewhere between 90% and 95% of applications. If we can get 200 to apply and be denied, NJ's numbers drop to 70% or 75% approved. That's a lot different than 95% approved. I'd like to have more than a couple hundred but that might be enough. 200 plaintiffs would be an impressive number.

I like this suggestion. Golf battery messaged me about this earlier. Sounds like it's got folding tables and chairs but no running water. We won't have waiters trying to hurry us out so they can have the tables we can spend whatever time it takes to get this done we can spread out, move around, and get comfortable. Instead of ordering meals, we could pick up a sandwich tray - which probably saves us all a few bucks. I'm not scared of an outhouse It seems like a good setting for a group of people staring a revolution. and the cost is right.

I've done a lot of business with these guys. Neat stuff, tech support is top notch. http://www.supercircuits.com/

I don't know if we'll get a different result than drake which was: Federal Circuit Court upheld NJ's laws and it was then sent to SCOTUS and they declined hearing the case. But if we don't send more cases, we won't ever get a different outcome. And one thing will be different, This time, NJ won't be able to tell the federal court that it issues more than 90% of permits as evidence that it protects people's rights.

Newtonian has pointed out that we need an agenda or we'll just spin our tires. I've created another topic about this meeting where we can come up with an agenda here. Hopefully the moderators will be kind and let us have 3 discussions running about this meeting at the same time. I just want to avoid the confusion of combining RSVPs, Where to Meet, and An Agenda discussion all on top of each other.

Newtonian has pointed out that we need an agenda or we'll just spin our tires. I've created another topic about this meeting where we can come up with an agenda here. Hopefully the moderators will be kind and let us have 3 discussions running about this meeting at the same time. I just want to avoid the confusion of combining RSVPs, Where to Meet, and An Agenda discussion all on top of each other.

Final Meeting Details Can Be Found Here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/75791-apply-to-be-denied-where-to-meet/?p=959931 Note that there are some changes. Original Post ------------------------------------ Newtonian has pointed out that we need an agenda. He's right. Without one, we'll never get anything done.. Let's write one here. I'll start with my suggestions. Ask to have stuff removed from this list that you don't like or ask to have stuff added that you do like. If a few people seem to agree on something, I'll make the change in this original post. So be sure to post to support or argue against each other's suggestions. This Agenda post is connected to the original post where everyone is RSVP'ing for the meeting and the post where we're trying to decide where to meet. Restore our Right-To-Carry – Lunch Meeting Saturday, March 28th 12:00 noon Somewhere in Central NJ - TBD Proposed Agenda Housekeeping Items Find a volunteer to act as recording secretary for this meeting.No need to record who said what Only need to write down:Any action items and who will complete them. The various lists we generate (questions for attorney, possible next steps, etc) Copy of parking lot (see note at bottom of post) Secretary will provide minutes to everyone via email after the meeting. Choose someone to write down “parking lot” items on a flip chart – see note at end about the parking lot. Pass a sign in sheet – names, usernames, towns, emails. Everyone gets a copy of this list later so we can communicate with each other after the meeting. How do we communicate later – create a facebook page, google groups, email? Meeting Agenda “Apply to be Denied” – is it a viable plan that we can support?Quick discussion – we’ve already discussed this ad nauseam online Quick vote – pursue this or not? What’s the final goal? - Start with the end in mind.Sue the state? Just prove that NJ really does deny rights? Something else? Questions for an attorneyWrite down our list of questions. How do we raise funds to hire an attorney? Which attorney? Possible next steps – collect everyone’s ideas for next steps. We can’t decide on specifics until after we talk to an attorney but let’s brainstorm for a few minutes anyway. Do we need to choose a leadership team? Project managers? -If so, Who? Assign all “action items” to someone in the group and set completion dates. Review the “Parking Lot” What is a Parking Lot? - In meetings, keeping a list we call the "parking lot" is a fairly standard practice. I've done it a lot and it really helps to keep a meeting on task while making sure we don't miss anything important. As the discussion unfolds, we "park" items that come up that aren't on the agenda, but which we believe could be important someday soon. The parking lot should be visible to prevent duplication – a flip chart works. For larger groups, someone should be assigned to record parking lot items. These get reviewed at the end of the meeting. Often, most of the parking lot items will already be settled by that point.

I agree that there needs to be an agenda or we will just waste time. I'm not sure we even have the right questions to ask an attorney at this time. I'm afraid that if we brought in an attorney at this time, he or she would just be blindsided with our random - and unorganized questions as a group all trying to go different directions and throw out different scenarios. The law is complicated - even for attorneys. There are lots of times that they need to do research before giving an opinion. I'd like to meet to try to come to some consensus about what we want to accomplish before we get the advice of an attorney. I know we'll have multiple ideas and different opinions - one of the hazards of getting liberty minded people together. Too bad we're not all progressives - we'd just do what we were told and we'd like it that way. A significant goal of this meeting should be to get a good list of questions for an attorney written down. Then we let people know what we're trying to do and see who will throw in $50. I don't want to discourage anyone from attending this first meeting by expecting a contribution toward an attorney in advance. Most can afford to chip in for lunch but not everyone can do more right now. There may be those who can't attend or who would prefer to support something financially more than be involved in the planning too. I'd like to offer the opportunity to support this to a larger group.

That's a very good question. Those of us who use the NJSP would be a fairly significant chunk of the applicants - that would give us a collective target. Some PDs will approve the applications which will be denied at the Superior Court - which might be a viable target. Or maybe there's a way to sue multiple defendants at the same time. I don't have a good answer but it needs to be one of the topics for discussion on the 28th.

I don't want to de-rail this discussion with other stuff so I've started another thread here. The other thread is to figure out where we are going to meet. Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

updated on Sunday 3/22 @ 9:30 The meeting will be held on Saturday March 28th at 1:00pm. Note the Time Change from noon to 1:00. There were several reasons for this already discussed in the forums. I'm planning to start promptly at 1:00. If you can't make it by 1:00, there will still be plenty to discuss. Some have late afternoon plans so we're going to get started right away. We are meeting at the historical Woosamonsa School House which does not have a mailing address. set your GPS to either: 104 Woosamonsa Rd. or 83 Poor Farm Road Pennington or Hopewell Township, NJ 08534 and look for this building: There will be no lunch. Lunch was suggested when I thought we would be eating in a restaurant. Golf battery has been kind enough to offer an actual meeting room and since the time has been moved to 1:00, we can get right to business at 1:00 without spending the time eating. Parking is limited. There is a small gravel lot. I'm not sure how small. You can park alongside the road. There is an Outhouse Enjoy! The Current Meeting Agenda is below. If you would like anything added to the agenda, please Message me by Wednesday and I will add whatever you want discuss. finally a big "thank you" to Golf battery for providing the meeting space. Meeting Agenda Restore our Right-To-Carry Saturday, March 28th 1:00pm - sharp! Woosamonsa School House Housekeeping Items Find a volunteer to act as recording secretary for this meeting.No need to record who said what Only need to write down:Any action items and who will complete them. The various lists we generate (questions for attorney, possible next steps, etc) Copy of parking lot (see note at bottom of post) Secretary will provide minutes to everyone via email after the meeting. Choose someone to record “parking lot” items on a flip chart – see note at end about the parking lot. Pass a sign in sheet – names, usernames, towns, emails. Everyone gets a copy of this list later so we can communicate with each other after the meeting. How do we communicate later – create a facebook page, google groups, email? Meeting Agenda “Apply to be Denied” – is it a viable plan that we can support?Quick discussion – we’ve already discussed this ad nauseam online Quick vote – pursue this or not? What’s the final goal? - Start with the end in mind.Sue the state? Just prove that NJ really does deny rights? Something else? Questions for an attorneyWrite down our list of questions. How do we raise funds to hire an attorney? Which attorney? Possible next steps – collect everyone’s ideas for next steps. We can’t decide on specifics until after we talk to an attorney but let’s brainstorm for a few minutes anyway. Do we need to choose a leadership team? Project managers? -If so, Who? Assign all “action items” to someone in the group and set completion dates. Review the “Parking Lot” What is a Parking Lot? - In meetings, keeping a list we call the "parking lot" is a fairly standard practice. I've done it a lot and it really helps to keep a meeting on task while making sure we don't miss anything important. As the discussion unfolds, we "park" items that come up that aren't on the agenda, but which we believe could be important someday soon. The parking lot should be visible to prevent duplication – a flip chart works. For larger groups, someone should be assigned to record parking lot items. These get reviewed at the end of the meeting. Often, most of the parking lot items will already be settled by that point. Original Message from 3/18 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This thread is in reference to the Saturday lunch thread found here. I want to leave that thread for RSVPs and not clog it up with off topic stuff so I'm starting this new thread here. We have about 15 who are planning to attend so far and the number's growing. I don't know how many will actually make it but it's a bigger group than I had planned. I made the quick sketch below of everyone's reported location. We have attendees at the extremes of the state. I'm the most southern so far! The green circle is probably the most convenient are for all of us. It means an hour and a half drive for a few of us but most are closer. We need to pick a location to get together and I really don't know the area that well. We talked about (or maybe it was just me) meeting at a diner. I'm not sure that really gives us the best place or the time we need for a good discussion. But I don't have any better ideas. What are your thoughts? Where should we meet?

I just posed some info and an invite to lunch in the "events and meetups" section here. If you're in - please "RSVP" there.

Final Meeting Details Can Be Found Here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/75791-apply-to-be-denied-where-to-meet/?p=959931 Note that there are some changes. Original Post ------------------------------------ There's been a lot of discussion (again) about organizing a large group to apply for NJ carry permits. The goal would be to get denied and challenge the denials as a large group in court. A large enough group of denied applicants would also disprove the state's claim that they aren't denying anyone's rights because they approve 97% of permits. Anyone interested in discussing this is invited to lunch on Saturday, March 28th. Please respond here if you're interested and if you would attend. I have no idea where this will lead or what plan, if any, we come up with. A discussion on this can be found here. I know not everyone favors the idea and I'm sure that the next 3 posts will explain why we should be discouraged and not try. But I'm up for this - assuming we get a group that's willing to talk. I want to be clear that I am not looking to lead this. Somebody needed to pick a date to meet or it would never happen so I stuck my neck out and picked one. After this post - I'm just a participant. I'm also not looking to start another splinter 2A group. There's been a lot of that lately. I do hope that some brilliant ideas develop over lunch. The place isn't determined yet. NJ has a lot of diners - if we get a large enough group we might be able to reserve a room. A centrally located range willing to donate a room might work too. That will be decided later. I want to see where everyone's from so we can find a place that's as central to as many of us as possible. So, if you're interested in getting together, please RSVP with a post below and be sure to mention what town/county you're in so we can try to accommodate everyone with minimum driving. Thanks.

I'll show up for lunch - anywhere in the state. I'm ready to do this. I really don't want this to become yet another splinter 2A group. Seems like there have been a rash of those in the last few months. I'd rather see an established group pick this up but it seems like we've been waiting long enough. I'll take a leap of faith and suggest a time to get together. Lets give everyone 2 weeks to clear their calendars. Let's make it a weekend so most are available. I know Albert and others have already done a lot of leg work and research. Hopefully Albert and others with real knowledge will make themselves available. I'll propose that anyone interested in discussing how we pull this off meet on Saturday, March 28th for lunch. We'll pick a place to meet after we see where everyone is from - most likely somewhere in the middle of the state. If you're in - please respond here and give your town so so we can choose a place to meet that's convenient to everyone. If no one responds, I'll just take my ball and go home - and we'll know why we don't have ccw in NJ. I'll start: I'm in! And I'm from Bridgeton - Cumberland County.

They might. But not if we're sitting around waiting for them to show up.

I propose the following game plan. I would be willing to help set this up but it would take more than just me. Since this plan involves raising money, I don't know if we would need to set up an organization. It would be nice if an established organization was interested in tackling this. A possible plan: Fund Raise for Initial Legal Advice - Set up a go fund me site. I don't think we'll collect much until we show a commitment but it will be enough to talk to someone who understands the process and can guide us. Estimate Individual Costs - Get a good estimate of the individual cost to apply, including: qualifying at the range, any necessary training, and the cost of the applications. It seems that Albert already has this figured out. Each individual participating bears their own cost of qualifying and applying. Get Commitments to Participate - Set up a website with a brief explanation of the plan with a form people can fill out who are willing to participate. Set a goal of the number of participants needed and when we reach that goal, we move to step 3. We also use this site to collect donations toward continuing legal advice. At this point, I think donations will still be small. Apply - We all apply en masse with a well thought out and "lawyer approved" letter for "justifiable need". (thus the fundraising) Fund Raise For the Eventual Court Challenge - Once a large group has applied we have something news worthy. We'll need the right spokesperson for interviews and we'll do press releases, social media blitz, etc. The goal is to get all 2A loving people inspired so they will....donate money to our new "go fund me" site. I believe we will have success in fund raising once we can show that several hundred have already applied and are committed to stand up against NJ and fight. In fact, we might even attract really big money. The NRA threw big money into the recall fight in CO once it was shown that there was a commitment. Collect Statistics on Denials - We use the same website for each participant to update as they pass milestones toward approval or denial. These stats are what we need for the challenge to NJ's laws. Challenge in Court - Use the funds collected to fund the court challenge(s).

I emailed the governor's office asking specifically if a denial of an application for a permit to carry a handgun was cause to be denied a FID or P2P. I received a call from a Lieutenant Genova from the NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit. He told me that being denied a carry permit because you lack justifiable need is not a reason to deny a FID or P2P applicaiton. He said that you would need to list the denial on line 27 of the application but if you explain that it was because you lacked justifiable need, it would not matter.

I don't know. I don't shop anywhere else.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it's just because I'm special.