Well, if you successfully defended against a home intruder & no criminal charges come your way, can't you be sued in a civil court on the grounds of overuse of deadly force, wrongful death, blah blah blah?

What if the intruder had a knife & you had a firearm?

What if you had opportunities to escape through the backdoor but didn't?

Current laws can always be challenged & appealed, can't they?

What about the costs $ of defending yourself with lawyers in a civil trial?

 

you appear to be grasping at straws..

 

you can be sued for just about anything anywhere... people know that.. the point is.. LEGALLY NJ outlines the use of force in self protection.. it establishes when you are and are not within the boundaries of the law...

 

I should probably add the self defense laws to the legal notes on this forum as they could be relevant to firearms..

oh yes.

 

The difference between criminal and civil suit.

 

Criminal = proven beyond reasonable doubt.

 

Civil = you can sue for anything, against anyone. You just have to be proven to be more wrong than right. There is no burden of proof. This is why you have a big umbrella policy, that covers you from such frivolous litigation.

Was it a taser or pepper spray? He touches wear he's hit and licks his lips which leads me to believe it was pepper spray. Either way he made the lunge, looked like he was going to swing, and paid the price. I think it's a good shoot.

I'm pretty sure he is pulling off the wires/prongs from a taser, but either way it is irrelevant.

Didn't have sound on at work when I watched it.

 

Either way a guy that can shrug off a taser or pepper spray like that is pretty scary.

Moral of this story,... Dont try to to bludgeon a police officer.. Justice served..

Congratulations to the cops. They took down some crazed lunatic, and they all went home safely. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a reality check. That thing didn't look like a crowbar, it was much longer and had something of more substance on the end. Regardless, he raised something made of steel at a cop as if he was going to hit the cop with it? He shouldn't get out of that situation without a couple extra holes in his body.

Puzzles me why for home defense in NJ, we must use "equal force" to defend ourselves in our own home. But cops don't need to abide by the same rules.

 

bs...Deadly force is deadly force..Why dont you try actually reading some statutes before making yourself look foolish

Didn't have sound on at work when I watched it.

 

Either way a guy that can shrug off a taser or pepper spray like that is pretty scary.

 

Hell of a lot scarier face to face.....

I wasn't there. With that being said, it looked like pepper spray to me and the kids in the car were saying "right in his face" as the Perp was wiping his face. Nobody aims a Taser for the face since it's too small of a target and you don't want to put an eye out & get sued!

 

Cop with the pepper spray spent a lot of time looking to see where it goes back on his duty belt and thus became distracted & vulnerable to attack. Perp "read" the vulnerability and cocked-back to take a full swing with tool. K-9 Cop saved the day with a righteous shoot. After the first 5 rounds from K-9 Cop I can't see the Perp, so as to the need for the next 5 please see wideangle security camera footage from hamburger joint.

 

Hats-off to K-9 Cop! I wish all Cops would practice strong-hand & weak hand only drills. It looks like K-9 officers do this out there! Kudos!

oh yes.

 

The difference between criminal and civil suit.

 

Criminal = proven beyond reasonable doubt.

 

Civil = you can sue for anything, against anyone. You just have to be proven to be more wrong than right. There is no burden of proof. This is why you have a big umbrella policy, that covers you from such frivolous litigation.

 

This..although the Assignment Judge IS able to dismiss or deny suits that are Obviously frivolous..although most times it seems they prefer to just "Let it Ride"

Taser probably wouldn't have been effective. Heavy sweatshirt and pants. Prongs might not make good contact

I went to full screen, it is a pipe bender..

 

http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053

 

I was always told never to bring a knife to a gun fight.

I just learned 1st hand not to bring a pipe bender to a gun fight either!!!

I'm all for the cop's decision in using lethal force. It is their job to be in harms way, they tried the taser, and the guy was clearly looking to do some serious damage winding up with that pipe bender.

 

I do have one question though... I wonder why the K9 cop didnt release the dog. I'm unfamiliar with the rules of engagement with dogs, but from watching other vids on the intertubes, it seems it would have been the perfect opportunity to release the dog as the bad guy came out of the building.

bs...Deadly force is deadly force..Why dont you try actually reading some statutes before making yourself look foolish

No need to use harsh words. Didn't really mean to offend anyone here. A few of you seem to want to lurk around & pounce on other people's comments. Is this the exception or the norm around this forum?

 

No need to use harsh words. Didn't really mean to offend anyone here. A few of you seem to want to lurk around & pounce on other people's comments. Is this the exception or the norm around this forum?

 

Lurk? Do you always speak without knowledge of your subject first? This thread is populated with comments by some of the most active posters on the forum.

 

Read the statutes, maybe look up some court precedents. You aren't really arguing a very sound position with a less than stellar attitude. I think the general populace has been pretty tolerant and restrained.

Actually its funny cause its an electrcial tool its called a pipe bender not sledge =P good window buster it is though

 

Yup, it will definitly crack a skull.

 

Good shot, give that officer a standing "O".

What matt said.

 

I don't think anyone is out to pounce on anyone, however would look to make sure what you are saying is true before adamantly defending the point, like yesterday in chat, about how 10mm was created for FBI because 40 S&W was too weak. (10mm was developed a good 20 years prior to 40 S&W).

 

=)

 

but yes, I am with Dan, what is the policy on the dogs? I was afraid he would let the dog loose and the perp would broadside the pooch with that pipe bender.

A dog is not to be put in harms wy just as another officer shouldnt be. A k9 is treated the same as another officer usually.

The dog question is actually a very good one. Given the time to make the decision to release the dog, this would have likely been the next escalation. however, given the actor's wind up and fast escalation and the other officers potential for injury or death as a result, there was no time to give a command and let the dog do his job in my opinion.

The dog question is actually a very good one. Given the time to make the decision to release the dog, this would have likely been the next escalation. however, given the actor's wind up and fast escalation and the other officers potential for injury or death as a result, there was no time to give a command and let the dog do his job in my opinion.

I agree 100%, while reviewing the video.. releasing the dog per-maturely may have resulted in the perp killing the dog, and at the point in which they shot him, releasing the dog would have done nothing, the guy would have had plenty of time to swing his weapon, and the dog would have blocked the actions of the officer. Police K9's are NOT used so police have the option to stay out of danger, they are used for many things and it's usually during searches or fleeing suspects.

I don't buy the police dog logic here. Seems dogs are sent into dangerous situations where you wouldn't send in another human being. I don't agree with it, but it seems to happen often.

 

Here is an example of a K9 team winning an award in CT for doing just that:

 

Link here (warning early 90's looking website with terrible midi music). I can even find some graphic examples of k9's being sent after dangerous armed suspects, even with the dogs getting killed by friendly fire.

 

The K-9 team advanced in the direction that PSD CZAR was indicating. Officer Reda observed Orlando in dense vegetation, crouching down with his hands concealed. Officer Reda produced his sidearm at the high ready position pointing it at Orlando ordering Orlando to show his hands and submit to arrest or a police dog would be deployed. Orlando would not comply despite numerous commands from Officer Reda. At this time Officer Reda commanded PSD Czar to apprehend and retrieve the suspect.

I don't buy the police dog logic here. Seems dogs are sent into dangerous situations where you wouldn't send in another human being. I don't agree with it, but it seems to happen often.

 

Here is an example of a K9 team winning an award in CT for doing just that:

 

Link here (warning early 90's looking website with terrible midi music). I can even find some graphic examples of k9's being sent after dangerous armed suspects, even with the dogs getting killed by friendly fire.

At times..but they generally are NOT sent in after a KNOWN Armed Subject. Guy standing there with a LONG weapon like that?? You wont find too many if ANY Civilian LE handlers that would send s dog in..Military is a different story, different ROE.

No need to use harsh words. Didn't really mean to offend anyone here. A few of you seem to want to lurk around & pounce on other people's comments. Is this the exception or the norm around this forum?

 

please don't take it in an offensive way.. but here is the issue as I see it..

 

NJ gun laws and the firearms community are all very sensitive you say the wrong thing and you put the wrong thought in someones head.. you might just get them killed.. you tell someone they can only use a gun if they are threatened with equal deadly force.. or you tell someone they can shoot XX caliber out of XX chambered gun.. (not saying you said anything or putting words in your mouth.. just painting a picture) and you could be the sole reason someone dies..

 

NJ LAW is pretty clear.. NJ opinion on law is far less clear.. it is VERY IMPORTANT to all of us to understand and KNOW what we are saying before we say it.. as polluting the forum with misinformation is a REALLY bad thing.. especially when the information is SO critical..

 

I hope that you can understand it is nothing personal..

 

saying things like the following is just flat out wrong.. and unless you are SURE ask.. don't state as fact..

 

Puzzles me why for home defense in NJ, we must use "equal force" to defend ourselves in our own home. But cops don't need to abide by the same rules.

Re. Sending the dog in early. The way I see it, all the guy was doing was property damage. I do not see any reason to send a dog into that. They confronted him, obviously asked him to stop and tried less than lethal action. Most likely the dog was a next step, especially after he shouldered it.

But that last wind up, it sure looked to me like he was not just going to beat him, he looked .2 seconds away from hitting the officer in the temple or top of of the skull.

 

Dog or not, the lag time for the dog wouldn't have stopped that. It's like my platoon sergeant told me once, " the thing about life and death situations is how fast it happens."

 

They want from setting up for a take down for vandalism to OH ****! And the only option at exactly that moment seemed to be to shoot.

 

If there had been even 10 more feet of space between pepper spray officer and the guy the dog might have kept him alive.

Score one for the good guys. Just sorry that the officer was forced to shoot and take a life, which is something he's got to live with the rest of his life

 

Just looked at the video again,it was a tazer. Dude took a tazer to the face like a champ. He just walked it off...he had to be hopped up on something.

Re. Sending the dog in early. The way I see it, all the guy was doing was property damage. I do not see any reason to send a dog into that. They confronted him, obviously asked him to stop and tried less than lethal action. Most likely the dog was a next step, especially after he shouldered it.

But that last wind up, it sure looked to me like he was not just going to beat him, he looked .2 seconds away from hitting the officer in the temple or top of of the skull.

 

Dog or not, the lag time for the dog wouldn't have stopped that. It's like my platoon sergeant told me once, " the thing about life and death situations is how fast it happens."

 

They want from setting up for a take down for vandalism to OH ****! And the only option at exactly that moment seemed to be to shoot.

 

If there had been even 10 more feet of space between pepper spray officer and the guy the dog might have kept him alive.

 

How do you see it as the guy was only doing property damage?

 

A guy walks into your home/business with that big ass thing starting to swing it... I would absolutely feel threatened and would use deadly force. No way in hell would I sit there politely with a gun in my holster waiting for him to start swinging at me.

 

Property damage is some smuck in a Yellow Hummer backing over someone's mailbox, , not a big dude swinging a pipe bender looking axe destroying property. Do you honestly think his intention was to go in there and break shit for shits and giggles?

Just looked at the video again,it was a tazer. Dude took a tazer to the face like a champ. He just walked it off...he had to be hopped up on something.

 

If you bring a conduit bender to a Carl's Junior to rob the place and eat a tazer and THEN attempt to swing said bender at a cop then expect to be put 6 feet into the ground. May God have mercey on his soul, and I hope the cop that was the attempted target with the bender thanks his partner and the officer that took the good shoot moves on in his life and this doesn't bother him.

A dog is not to be put in harms wy just as another officer shouldnt be. A k9 is treated the same as another officer usually.

 

I thought dogs were to be put into situations that are too dangerous for humans. I'm not talking drug sniffing dogs,I'm talking full on K9 German Shepard attack mofos.

 

Edit, saw more commentary about this above. I dunno, seems like a good situation to send in the dog, but I guess it depends on what the dog is trained for.