I thought dogs were to be put into situations that are too dangerous for humans. I'm not talking drug sniffing dogs,I'm talking full on K9 German Shepard attack mofos.

 

What would this have accomplished? Dog gets smacked with the bender and then what?

 

It's a good shot, end it.

How do you see it as the guy was only doing property damage?

 

Do you honestly think his intention was to go in there and break **** for shits and giggles?

 

Because that is what i read that he did. Maybe he beat someone in there but I haven't read that anywhere yet.

I have a better question for you, what makes you think a guy breaking things with a tool shows intent to do bodily harm?

 

No one saw anything in that video that indicated he was going to injure anyone until he turned on that cop.

Same could be said about a guy carrying a pool cue or a bat doing the same thing. Sure you would be wise to be wary, but It went from property damage to deadly in the blink of an eye.

 

If you read more into it than that I would really like to know why.

What would this have accomplished? Dog gets smacked with the bender and then what?

 

It's a good shot, end it.

 

Speculation sir.

 

I would have shot him too.. but I think, think, cant be sure cuz I wasnt there, that I would have released the dog.

No wonder lawyers make a ton a money. Even w/ the video plain as day everyone has a different point of view. Noone can be certain of the suspects intentions, but as NJZED said bringing a pipe bender to a fast food restaurant + ignoring police commands + eating a tazer THEN turning for a swing should be more than enough to warrant deadly force.

I wasn't there. With that being said, it looked like pepper spray to me and the kids in the car were saying "right in his face" as the Perp was wiping his face. Nobody aims a Taser for the face since it's too small of a target and you don't want to put an eye out & get sued!

 

Cop with the pepper spray spent a lot of time looking to see where it goes back on his duty belt and thus became distracted & vulnerable to attack. Perp "read" the vulnerability and cocked-back to take a full swing with tool. K-9 Cop saved the day with a righteous shoot. After the first 5 rounds from K-9 Cop I can't see the Perp, so as to the need for the next 5 please see wideangle security camera footage from hamburger joint.

 

Hats-off to K-9 Cop! I wish all Cops would practice strong-hand & weak hand only drills. It looks like K-9 officers do this out there! Kudos!

 

I agree Dave. The cop putting the pepper spray away screwed-up, it's on film, and his partner saved his arse. That guy turned and was about to swing that pipe bender upwards, you could see it was just about to happen. The cop with the K9 did what he had to to save his dumb partner. The fool with the pipe bender made his last mistake...............Some fine one-handed shooting for sure!

Deadly force wasn't needed at the beginning of the altercation. The dumbass escalated it to a deadly force type situation when he raised his deadly weapon in an attempt to attack.

 

If you get smacked in the melon with that thing you are gonne be dead or seriously f'ed up for the rest of your life

I thought it was a Taser and the guys filming it "saying in the face" was straight out of The Hangover movie. The other cop seemed to to be concerned with wrapping up the Taser wires. This video might be used a lot for future LEO training.

Definitely a Taser, dude for sure took it like a boss.. Do both have to make contact with skin for it to complete a circuit and work function? Possibly LEO1 was aiming for a chest shot, one prong goes high and hits the face, heavy sweatshirt prevented the 2nd prong from making contact so it didn't work?

 

It is indeed a conduit (not so much a pipe) bender. I use one at work. LEO2 makes a good shoot for sure IMO. I'd like to know if all 5rds hit the target?

 

I would however like to see what made LEO1 engage the suspect a 2nd time with another 5rds. I would think that will come into question, at that point suspect is down, the dog could've did some work...

 

Either way.. saves the Taxpayers some loot.

I don't like to armchair general, but the first 5 are definately good. Can't see the bad guy during the second 5, so no even going to make a guess on that one. Either way I doubt they would have made that much of a difference as to whether he lived or not.

2nd 5 shots were from the officer who he was going to hit - adrenaline and fear caused that - for sure.

It's a good shot, end it.

This. It's a solid shoot. It doesn't matter what he did inside the joint, or what other tools were available to the cops at the point and time. When he raised the pipe to swing, the most readily available tool they had to stop him were their guns. He threatened the life of a police officer. They used a tool to stop the threat. End the discussion.

Because that is what i read that he did. Maybe he beat someone in there but I haven't read that anywhere yet. I have a better question for you, what makes you think a guy breaking things with a tool shows intent to do bodily harm? No one saw anything in that video that indicated he was going to injure anyone until he turned on that cop. Same could be said about a guy carrying a pool cue or a bat doing the same thing. Sure you would be wise to be wary, but It went from property damage to deadly in the blink of an eye. If you read more into it than that I would really like to know why.

 

Let me rephrase that.

 

I don't know from video if he was causing damage from outside, or went inside the store. If from outside, sure... if he went inside I sure as hell would feel threatened.

 

same for the example I gave, if someone like that came into my office, swinging that tool, I would draw down. (note to self, next office admin must be gun owner)

 

It's a good shot, end it.

 

Ehh quit 'cher bitchin or I'll release the dog.

Let me rephrase that.

I don't know from video if he was causing damage from outside, or went inside the store. If from outside, sure... if he went inside I sure as hell would feel threatened.

same for the example I gave, if someone like that came into my office, swinging that tool, I would draw down. (note to self, next office admin must be gun owner)

 

I agree 100%

 

But it again points out to us (except RayRay the kind of stuff cops have to think about.

 

I know I have considered what I might have to do in an active shooter situation. Heck even the building management where I work has had people come in talk about what to do in an active shooter situation.

 

Never once did I think an about active smasher situation.

I just reviewed the film again. I stand corrected. It was a taser, NOT spray! Couldn't see the wires when I first saw the clip. I'm just a civilian, so I'm NO EXPERT! But this is what I think:

 

Who ever posted that this will be used to teach LEO's is right on the money in my book! Both good & bad, for a host of reasons! This, IMHO is a classic example of too much technology. Only one lead of the taser went in, and the Perp yanked it out. And it was shot at the Perp's face, close range. NOT the right tool to use in that situation! Simple low-tech can of spray would have done the trick! OR a 12 ga. pump Riot Gun with the round in the chamber being a non-lethal bean bag round. Perp comes out, refuses to lay down, tool is still in his hand (he's choked-up on the handle, not in swing mode and it all happens fast), and since the Perp doesn't KNOW what is about to come out of the 12 ga.: 1. Perp lays down with crap in his drawers since he's looking down that BIG HOLE in the front of that gun OR 2. Perp gets hit with bean bag and (most likely) situation handled. Cop trainers that teach the use of the bean bags are going to have a field day with this video! Taser Cop wouldn't have had to get in close enough to use the taser, then being distracted re-holstering it thus becoming vulnerable to attack via swing of tool.

 

As to sending the dog in: Arm Chair QB is always easier. That being said, the time to send in the dog (if the dog was trained to do more than drugs) would have been immediately after the Perp came out of the hamburger joint refusing to drop the tool and lay face down on the blacktop. A matter of just a few seconds. Once that time was passed the window of opportunity is extremely diminished IMHO. The use of the dog after the taser might have resulted in taser Cop getting hit with the tool. NOT GOOD!

 

I'm NOT saying that this wasn't a "righteous shoot"--just that the proper use of different tool might have resulted in a different outcome. And the K-9 Cop wouldn't have this killing in his head for the rest of his life.

Armchair Lawyering runs rampant with stuff like this. I'm willing to be that the perp was on something - as the taser was ineffective. A beanbag may have taken him down but who knows - they didn't have them with them. Aren't beanbags only deployed with riot gear?

Armchair Lawyering runs rampant with stuff like this. I'm willing to be that the perp was on something - as the taser was ineffective. A beanbag may have taken him down but who knows - they didn't have them with them. Aren't beanbags only deployed with riot gear?

 

The taser clearly didn't get both prongs in the guy and spray may have worked. The fact is, you shouldn't take a swing at anyone with a pipe bender. If you do, all bets are off. I'm curious as to what triggered his "rampage"? His hamburger have mustard on it and he REALLY hates mustard? Fries cold?

I'm curious as to what triggered his "rampage"? His hamburger have mustard on it and he REALLY hates mustard? Fries cold?

 

They didn't have a "LiterOCola"

Note to self, never try and play "Two for flinching" with a cop...just sayin.

Armchair Lawyering runs rampant with stuff like this. I'm willing to be that the perp was on something - as the taser was ineffective. A beanbag may have taken him down but who knows - they didn't have them with them. Aren't beanbags only deployed with riot gear?

Nick,

 

The Perp may not have "been" on anything! The taser never had a chance to work, for it was only half plugged-in. Low-tech spray probably would have done the trick. The bean bag would have kept taser Cop far enough away so as to make using the dog a possibility and keeping taser Cop from becoming vulnerable in the first place. And if all of that failed, you can still shoot the Perp with the 12 ga. (with round #2, standard 00Buckshot) if he lunges & swings the tool at you after taking the bean bag (FAT CHANCE).

 

My point wasn't to "Arm chair Lawyer". Instead it was meant to illustrate the ineffectiveness of the most popular "PC" form of non-lethal weapon, the taser. And the unneccessary out-of-control spending on this weapons system. The fact that the Cops in this video didn't have the $2.00 bean bag as a non-lethal tool is of little consequence (except of course to the dead Perp and the Cop who had to save his partner).

 

Tasers work under ideal conditions. This situation was far from what I would consider ideal. As to whether or not bean bags are only for actual declared Riots I can not say, and frankly, I don't care, for I'm sick of hearing stories of Perps being treated with insufficient non-lethal force and then having this (a Police shooting) become the final outcome. Bean bag shells don't cost as much as a taser, so they're easier on the taxpayers too! Problem is that they're fired from a real gun, not something that shouldn't (notice I didn't say can't, since we all KNOW that tasers CAN kill) be lethal! So the taxpayers have to endure the cost of an ineffective weapons system as well as the required training for same. I am not burdened with a Police budget that might be cut if we don't find a way to spend the money (on the tasers). So in reality, this situation in the video might have been avoided if the department spent LESS money on equipment.

 

I still think that given what we see here, that it's a "righteous Shoot". I also think that they taser Cop won't think his taser is too reliable! That in and of itself could possibly lead to an escalation to deadly force if a similar incident comes to bear. I also think that the K-9 Cop will be second-guessing himself (and possibly thinking as I do, that the use of the bean bag instead of a taser would have led to a different outcome) for eternity because no one WANTS to take a life.

I just reviewed the film again. I stand corrected. It was a taser, NOT spray! Couldn't see the wires when I first saw the clip. I'm just a civilian, so I'm NO EXPERT! But this is what I think:

 

Who ever posted that this will be used to teach LEO's is right on the money in my book! Both good & bad, for a host of reasons! This, IMHO is a classic example of too much technology. Only one lead of the taser went in, and the Perp yanked it out. And it was shot at the Perp's face, close range. NOT the right tool to use in that situation! Simple low-tech can of spray would have done the trick! OR a 12 ga. pump Riot Gun with the round in the chamber being a non-lethal bean bag round. Perp comes out, refuses to lay down, tool is still in his hand (he's choked-up on the handle, not in swing mode and it all happens fast), and since the Perp doesn't KNOW what is about to come out of the 12 ga.: 1. Perp lays down with crap in his drawers since he's looking down that BIG HOLE in the front of that gun OR 2. Perp gets hit with bean bag and (most likely) situation handled. Cop trainers that teach the use of the bean bags are going to have a field day with this video! Taser Cop wouldn't have had to get in close enough to use the taser, then being distracted re-holstering it thus becoming vulnerable to attack via swing of tool.

 

As to sending the dog in: Arm Chair QB is always easier. That being said, the time to send in the dog (if the dog was trained to do more than drugs) would have been immediately after the Perp came out of the hamburger joint refusing to drop the tool and lay face down on the blacktop. A matter of just a few seconds. Once that time was passed the window of opportunity is extremely diminished IMHO. The use of the dog after the taser might have resulted in taser Cop getting hit with the tool. NOT GOOD!

 

I'm NOT saying that this wasn't a "righteous shoot"--just that the proper use of different tool might have resulted in a different outcome. And the K-9 Cop wouldn't have this killing in his head for the rest of his life.

 

Or the bean bag/OC would have done the same thing the taser did and just piss him off...

 

It is irrelevant, idiot acted like he was going to swing something big and heavy at a another person, bad idea. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I don't believe bean bags are a viable solution in this situation. When the LEOs show up they have limited information, they don't know to what extent this guy is armed. You pull a shotgun with a bean bag, he pulls a real gun. What then? Maybe there is a second officer there with his weapon, loaded with real bullets, trained on the suspect so no big deal. Maybe not. Either way it is what we refer to as a "point of failure" in IT. Just another unnecessary variable added into the mix that has the potential to cause problems or make existing problems worse rather than better.

 

Yes, try the pepper spray but never put yourself close enough to be in harms way when someone is swinging a tool that can crush a skull in one blow.

 

It comes down to personal responsibility. If a person want to break the law and do bad **** they have to be willing to pay the price. He paid it.

You can argue using mace or a baton or a tazer or less-than-leathal shotshells but dude's got a piece of pipe and he's about to swing at your partner. YOUR partner that puts his life in YOUR hands and yours in his. Come on guys, put yourself in both guys shoes.

You can argue using mace or a baton or a tazer or less-than-leathal shotshells but dude's got a piece of pipe and he's about to swing at your partner. YOUR partner that puts his life in YOUR hands and yours in his. Come on guys, put yourself in both guys shoes.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, when that guy stepped into the pitch, I would have fired.

You can argue using mace or a baton or a tazer or less-than-leathal shotshells but dude's got a piece of pipe and he's about to swing at your partner. YOUR partner that puts his life in YOUR hands and yours in his. Come on guys, put yourself in both guys shoes.

 

I don't think anyone is questioning that. Its the time leading up to it that I find worthy of discussion.

You can argue using mace or a baton or a tazer or less-than-leathal shotshells but dude's got a piece of pipe and he's about to swing at your partner. YOUR partner that puts his life in YOUR hands and yours in his. Come on guys, put yourself in both guys shoes.

Ray,

 

You bring up an interesting thought, namely that these two are partners. That means that they rode in the same car? With the dog?

 

In any event the expensive ineffective technology didn't work, and the Cop who almost got killed using it won't ever RELY on it again to get the job done.

 

To greatgunstatenj: As to the Cops having little info about the situation, i strongly doubt it. Somebody in the burger joint (probably) made the call to PD before the guy started swinging, or just after if he came-in swinging! Also lots of witnesses inside & out calling PD to decribe weapon. Even our "homey's doing the video". The two Cops probably knew what they guy had which is why they waited for him to go outside and why the taser was tried first. Upon rolling up to the scene, taser Cop could have grabbed the 12 ga. in a few seconds. He didn't, either because it wasn't available OR because they were trained to use the taser. Doesn't matter, my point is still the same: having to get close enough to use the taser put a Cop's life in severe enough jeopardy that the other Cop had to use his gun. THAT'S my point!

I don't think anyone is questioning that. Its the time leading up to it that I find worthy of discussion.

 

Thank-you! That's what I'm trying to discuss. To me it seems like an eternity with many seconds ticking by that the Cops are waiting outside for this Perp. Plenty of time to rack-in a bean bag.....

I think taser cop is gonna be in trouble for shooting the guy who was down on the ground after getting shot by the other officer, sucks to be him! Hope that perp had a gun or a knife, or they had one to put on him. There is no reason to shoot the guy after he already took up to five shots. Good luck to him. You know what a Prosecutor would be doing to any of us right now if we had done the same inside our own home. No bail, sit and rot, we wouldn't be going anywhere.

He wasn't on the ground - he was still up after those first 5 shots.

He wasn't on the ground - he was still up after those first 5 shots.

Nick,

 

To be quite honest with you, I simply can't see that in this video, from this angle. I'm not really sure anyone can beyond a reasonable doubt. The surveillance cameras from the burger joint might show a better angle on that. If he was still "up" and not at least on his way down (he sure was absorbing some flying lead, as his back-pedal indicates) then why did K-9 Cop stop shooting or not continue shooting in tandem?

 

Don't get me wrong--I'm not out to crucify taser Cop. Nothing of the sort! If I were in that situation I might empty my entire mag into the Perp and then reload & check for any additional threats or movement.