1 oz

1,700 fps mv

2,800 ft/lb of energy

 

2,800 ft/lb of ENERGY

 

'nuff said

inside 7 yards it doesn't matter what you use. #8 shot, #4 shot, 000, 00, slug whatever. It will put 1 big hole in the bad guy

1 oz

1,700 fps mv

2,800 ft/lb of energy

 

2,800 ft/lb of ENERGY

 

'nuff said

 

 

That only applies to a single projectile however. You can't use the sum weight of a group of shot to develope a useful energy reading.

 

 

And ray, seriously? 20 feet (<7 yards) this video was recorded at. Was there one big one in the block of jelly? why do you think a person will be different?

Guess I don't have to do my own testing afterall

I still wanna do my own testing,... I wanna test 5.56/.223 from close ranges not to mention a multitude of other ammo

Sorry, I've done my own testing. Birdshot is fine for me.

Sorry, I've done my own testing. Birdshot is fine for me.

 

Not once have you posted about shooting anything other than paper. Good luck when something other than papier-mâché breaks into your house.

Whoever said 'keep birdshot for birds' is right.

 

Birdshot might hurt someone at close distance, but the chance of killing someone is slim. There have been a multitude of cases (don;t have any cites but I could try and find them) that people have been wounded by birdshot at close distance.

 

Buckshot and slugs, IMO. Close distance or long distance, they are both proven and hit hard with tremendous power and cause major damage.

How far away was Dick Cheyney's buddy when he popped him in the face?

 

Maybe bird as a first round but I'd be following it up with something more.

There was a kid who took 3 rouds of birdshot t close range in Detroit when his so called friend tried to get into a gang. One center mass one to the arm and glancing to the head.

 

He lived to tell the tale. Albeit barely. I'll try to find the video when I get home

Not once have you posted about shooting anything other than paper. Good luck when something other than papier-mâché breaks into your house.

 

I do my testing in a secret location that only privileged friends can go, sorry you don't qualify.

I do my testing in a secret location that only privileged friends can go, sorry you don't qualify.

 

Thank God. I don't want to be anywhere near you doing any sort of "testing".

Thank God. I don't want to be anywhere near you doing any sort of "testing".

 

Right, cause I'm dangerous. You don't even use a scattergun for home defense so what do you know about the different types of ammo?

I put tons of rounds through my many shotguns, and actually use the guns instead of humping them in bed. I have taken game with birdshot, buckshot, and slugs. I'd wager my experience with shotties far exceeds your own.

With the MV of Remington's 3" - 1 oz. slug traveling @ 1760 fps, I was surprised that big chunk of lead broke up in just ballistic gelatin and a few water jugs. I would view break-up as a negative in a hunting situation, as I would want penetration in all situations from all angles; but in a HD/SD situation, said break-up may have some advantages. Still, slugs would offer too much penetration for a HD situation in my opinion. I don't know if birdshot would be my first choice either. Yes, a shotgun load will sever a two-inch green sapling handily at very close range, but as range increases its immediate lethality drops off.

 

This read makes some compelling sense. An excerpt from the book Gunshot Wounds by Vincent J.M. Di Maio-

http://books.google....shotgun&f=false

 

"At close range, the shotgun is the most formidable and destructive of all small arms. For birdshot and buckshot loads, the severity and lethality of a shotgun wound depends on the number of pellets that enter the body, the organs struck by the pellets and the amount of tissue destruction. Like handgun bullets, the extent of tissue destruction from each individual pellet is limited to that tissue they physically shred. Temporary cavities play no significant role in injury. This is, of course, not the case with rifle slugs, which like rifle bullets, produce injury both directly and from the temporary cavity formation. In rifled weapons, the weight of the bullet does not change no matter how great the distance. In contrast, in shotguns, as the range increases there is dispersion of shot with resultant decrease in the number of pellets that strike the target. Although velocity decreases with range in rifled weapons, this decrease is very little at the short ranges at which most killings occur."

 

"In contrast, the unfavorable ballistic shape of the shotgun pellet, combined with the lack of stabilizing spin, causes a rapid fall-off in velocity to perforate skin. Thus, unlike rifled weapons, in shotguns, the range from muzzle to target is extremely important in determining the number of pellets that strike the body and enter it. Larger sized shot is more effective at longer range because it retains its velocity better than smaller shot. The maximum range that lead birdshot can travel, as calculated by Journee's formula (maximum range in yards = shot diameter in inches times 2200,) ranges from 110 yds. for #12 shot to 396 yds. for BB shot. For buckshot, the maximum range is 528 yds. for #4 buck and 726 yds. for #00 Buck. The actual effective range to produce wounding in humans is considerably less because of the minimum velocity necessary to perforate skin."

 

The standard 1 oz. Forster slugs traveling at 1500-1600 fps always stayed together for me on 4-legged game. Most completely penetrated deer-sized game at ranges from 20 yds. to 50 yds. I've never recovered a Brenneke slug. I've never recovered a 7/8 oz. Forster slug that were popular back in the 70's & 80's either. The majority of shots I took over the years consisted of broadside and downward hits and almost all were complete pass-throughs. Oftentimes, the game was DRT, which I found is usually typical of a slug's performance. I've only recovered two Forster 1 oz. slugs. Both broke major bones upon entry, and penetrated deeply. Game they were recovered from dressed-out in the 110 &130 lb. range.

 

I believe for home defense the slug would be extremely over-effective in a household based on my experience. Buckshot should be effective for home use, but I won't use buckshot for deer. It works for many who use it for that purpose, but only in selective situations that suit it. Slugs work under all conditions and situations provided shot placement is exact.

I put tons of rounds through my many shotguns, and actually use the guns instead of humping them in bed. I have taken game with birdshot, buckshot, and slugs. I'd wager my experience with shotties far exceeds your own.

 

Sorry young man, i beg to differ.

shotgun slugs will go thru a person like butter. I've shot plenty of deer at 30-100 yards and had pass thrus. 20 feet? that slug aint stoppin anytime soon.

 

at 20 feet 1oz slug, 1 1/8 ofbirdshot(game load), buckshot all will be a big wad at such short range. in a house a shotgun is not my first choice as a home defense weapon(because of its size/length) but if i had to have a shotgun it would be loaded with heavy birdshot load like #2s or BBs. The energy at impact would certainly put him on his back and if managed to get up you can just follow the bloodtrail.

Note to self..if Ray Ray hosts a pig roast , watch out for pellets in the meat.

Sorry young man, i beg to differ.

I put tons of rounds through my many shotguns, and actually use the guns instead of humping them in bed. I have taken game with birdshot, buckshot, and slugs. I'd wager my experience with shotties far exceeds your own.

 

Sporting clays at high noon?

 

Also I found that video, They don't say anything about the type of round used but if you look at the x-ray its clearly birdshot. If this 150lb kid can take a hit to the chest and still get up and walk down the street imagine some cracked out 250lb dude coming to kill you..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BACnPBdsH20

The energy at impact would certainly put him on his back and if managed to get up you can just follow the bloodtrail.

 

Not true, regardless of the ammunition used. For every action there is an equal & opposite reaction. If it doesn't knock down the shooter that fires it, it isn't going to knock down the person it connects with either.

I don't have enough experience to joust on this subject , so i'll just trust 00 buck... http://www.theboxotr.../docs/edu91.htm

The energy at impact would certainly put him on his back and if managed to get up you can just follow the bloodtrail.

 

Too much movie mythology.

I don't have enough experience to joust on this subject , so i'll just trust 00 buck... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm

 

Ditto.

Too much movie mythology.

 

^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

Not true, regardless of the ammunition used. For every action there is an equal & opposite reaction. If it doesn't knock down the shooter that fires it, it isn't going to knock down the person it connects with either.

30lbs of felt recoil vs 2300lb muzzle energy. I'll take my chances behind the gun. They certainly dont seem equal to me.

 

Too much movie mythology.

 

which movie?! maybe I missedit!

 

Im just basing my opinion on inside 20' in a house assuming other good guys are in the house.

 

I do a lot of hunting in the pines in the thick stuff and the load i use is #1 plated buckshot. I've used #4 but always required a follow up shot. Results on deer have been similar when using oo buck or #1 buck. Pattern is a little better for me IN MY GUN when using #1 buck. I limit my shots to 40 yards b/c thats where I have practiced and patterned my gun.

 

Here is an interesting link.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

which movie?! maybe I missedit!

nice! never saw it. not into the killbill thing.

I've posted these pics here before. These are my only two recovered slugs taken from game along with an unfired one-ounce slug for comparison. Both slugs broke bones (shoulder & spine) upon entry and continued to deform as they penetrated before coming to rest. Both retained close to their original 1-oz. weight without breaking up or disintegrating. Slug on the left was removed from a buck taken in Walpack back in 1980. Slug in the middle was removed from a buck a couple miles from Tillman's Ravine back in 1991:

 

L-R - Recovered weights of 428.2 grs., 417.9 grs., and unfired @ 439 grs. (1 oz. = 437.5 grs.)

 

Overkill for home defense. Suitable for anything else.

Hit the range today B A it was nice and quite. 20 rounds of 12 gau 00 buck @ 25'